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No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 8:42 am
by RebelSnake
ghostbusters.jpg


Researchers use neuroimaging to study ESP
CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Jan. 3, 2008 -- Psychologists at Harvard University have developed a new method to study extrasensory perception that, they argue, can resolve the century-old debate over its existence. According to the authors, their study not only illustrates a new method for studying such phenomena, but also provides the strongest evidence yet obtained against the existence of extrasensory perception, or ESP.

The research was led by Samuel Moulton, a graduate student in the department of psychology in the Faculty of Arts and Sciences at Harvard University with Stephen Kosslyn, John Lindsley Professor of Psychology at Harvard and was published in the Jan. 2008 issue of the Journal of Cognitive Neuroscience. The scientists used brain scanning to test whether individuals have knowledge that cannot be explained through normal perceptual processing.

"If any ESP processes exist, then participants' brains should respond differently to ESP and non-ESP stimuli," explains Moulton. “Instead, results showed that participants’ brains responded identically to ESP and non-ESP stimuli, despite reacting strongly to differences in how emotional the stimuli were and showing subtle, stimulus-related effects.”

Nearly half of the adults in the United States believe in the existence of ESP, which includes telepathy (direct knowledge of another person's thoughts), clairvoyance (direct knowledge of remote events), and precognition (direct knowledge of the future). People commonly report unexplained knowledge of a loved one's death or a telephone caller's identity, for example, and attribute this knowledge to paranormal mental processing.

The U.S. government lent credence to such claims when it revealed that it had spent millions of dollars recruiting and training psychic spies during the Cold War. Furthermore, research studies have been reported that appear to support the existence of ESP, including an influential series of experiments analyzed by psychologist Daryl Bem of Cornell University. These studies, however, gave little insight into the mechanisms -- normal or paranormal -- that produced the anomalous results. Perhaps more telling, others failed to replicate these results.

To develop a better test of ESP, the authors decided to develop a new method, which directly addressed the presumed source of ESP: namely, the brain. They argue that because the brain enables perception and stores information -- even events people don't consciously perceive or information they can't consciously remember -- it can offer a much more comprehensive test for ESP than self-report or behavior.

"The brain shows a suppressed response to stimuli that a person has seen before, even when those stimuli were presented subliminally, so the person wasn't consciously aware of having seen them; furthermore, it shows an enhanced response to stimuli that a person is expecting," says Moulton. "Because knowledge and expectation bias brain activation, neuroimaging offers us a uniquely powerful test of subtle perceptual or cognitive processes."

To study whether or not ESP exists, Moulton and Kosslyn presented participants with two types of visual stimuli: ESP stimuli and non-ESP stimuli. These two types of stimuli were identical with one exception: ESP stimuli were not only presented visually, but also were presented telepathically, clairvoyantly, and precognitively to participants.

To present stimuli telepathically, the researchers showed the photographs to the participants' identical twin, relative, romantic partner, or friend, who was seated in another room. To present stimuli clairvoyantly, the researchers displayed the photographs on a distant computer screen. And to present stimuli precognitively, the researchers showed participants the photographs again in the future.

Does this conclusively prove that ESP does not exist" "No," says Moulton. "You cannot affirm the null hypothesis. But at the same time, some null results are stronger than others. This is the best evidence to date against the existence of ESP. Perhaps most important, this study offers scientists a new way to study ESP that avoids the pitfalls of past approaches."


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ESP is just like religion. No matter how much evidence there is against it, there will be people that will always beLIEve in it.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 8:47 am
by Liv
So do you believe that when a someone is able to show a positive precognition, it's a random guess, or mathematical deduction?

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 8:54 am
by RebelSnake
Liv wrote:So do you believe that when a someone is able to show a positive precognition, it's a random guess, or mathematical deduction?

What do you think it is?

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 9:01 am
by Liv
I hate to say it, but I'm not saying precognitive thought, or telepathy exists in the form we thing... but I suspect there are things our minds are blind too or incapable of perceiving because we haven't completely evolved something to perceive the stimuli. Perhaps a portion of that "3rd eye" is slowly awakening, and we haven't gained the ability to a) understand and use it, or b) even scientifically prove it exists.

I mean, not that we should be betting our futures on it.... but what's Deja Vu? And we all have experienced that.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 9:18 am
by SouthernFriedInfidel
Liv wrote:So do you believe that when a someone is able to show a positive precognition, it's a random guess, or mathematical deduction?

Depends on the situation. One time I had a strong feeling of deja vu, and I was coincidentally talking with a psychologist friend of mine. I asked him what he thought of the phenomenon. He said that studies have been done on it, and it has been proven that the feeling is caused by a random, short-term surge in a certain chemical in the brain. I've found that information most interesting, and reflect on it in the moments when the feeling hits me.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 9:31 am
by RebelSnake
http://abc.com.au/science/news/scitech/SciTechRepublish_1691529.htm
Memory no barrier to deja vu: research
Thursday, 20 July 2006

The New Scientist magazine reports that researchers believe they have found a key insight into deja vu, the eerie sensation of seeing something that has already been experienced.

Experiments suggest that deja vu can be triggered independently, without a real memory to prompt it, the British weekly magazine reports in next Saturday's issue.

Recognising a familiar object or scene is believed to unleash two processes in the brain.

First, the mind searches through its memory archive to see if the contents of that scene have been observed before.

If so, a separate part of the brain then identifies the scene or object as being familiar.

Exploring this two-step theory, a team at the University of Leeds in northern England showed volunteers 24 common words, then hynotised them.

The 18 guinea pigs were told that when they were next presented with a word in a red frame, they would feel that the word was familiar, although they would not know when they last saw it.

But if they saw a word in a green frame, they would think that the word belonged to the original list of 24.

The volunteers were then taken out of hypnosis and presented with a series of words in frames of various colours.

Some of the words were not in the original list of 24 and were framed in red or green.

Ten of the volunteers said they felt an odd sensation when they saw new words in red, and five others said this sensation definitely felt like deja vu.

Researcher Akira O'Connor, a doctoral student at the university's memory group says the findings shed intriguing light on the causes of deja vu and on fundamental workings of human memory.

"This tells us that it is possible to experimentally dissociate these two processes, which is really important in establishing that they are indeed separate," she said.

Previous research has suggested that deja vu may originate in a part of the brain called the temporal lobe.

Some people with temporal lobe epilepsy frequently report deja vu, and French scientists have found that electrically stimulating parts of the temporal lobe can trigger a sensation of familliarity with everything a person encounters.

- AFP

It's just the way the brain works. There's nothing paranormal about it.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 9:44 am
by Liv
One of my creepiest, Deja Vus was when I was down in the Bahamas. I had obviously never been there before. In addition the day it happened we went out to this water observatory structure. Kind of like a tower out in the middle of the ocean. I had never seen the place before, nor been to it. But oddly enough I knew I had been there before. I remember remarking to my dad at the time.... who didn't think anything of it.... when I said it, and I realized he didn't take me seriously, till I actually pointed out the where the sunken ship was.... (though we hadn't walked to that side of the building yet) and walked straight too it.

I amazed myself a bit, and creeped out.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 10:58 am
by A Person
Liv wrote:So do you believe that when a someone is able to show a positive precognition, it's a random guess, or mathematical deduction?
No one has ever been able to show a positive precognition, greater than chance (i.e. statistically significant), under controlled conditions. When they do there will be a phenomenon to investigate. A lot of money has been spent trying to demonstrate an effect but it has all failed. Randi's $1,000,000 is safe.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 11:31 am
by Liv
You know, this whole "we need substantial proof" before it exists crowd, is really make human life seem pretty boring.... I might just start believing in God again, to have fun.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 11:37 am
by SouthernFriedInfidel
Liv wrote:You know, this whole "we need substantial proof" before it exists crowd, is really make human life seem pretty boring.... I might just start believing in God again, to have fun.

There's a book you might want to pick up. Called "The Varieties of Scientific Experience" by Carl Sagan. How anyone can say that life in this day could seem "boring" is completely beyond me...

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 12:17 pm
by A Person
Liv wrote:You know, this whole "we need substantial proof" before it exists crowd, is really make human life seem pretty boring.... I might just start believing in God again, to have fun.

You can still enjoy a bit of magic without believing in it. I sacrifice a bit of meat on the BBQ to the gods, decorate a tree at Christmas, hide easter eggs, dress up for halloween. I'll even read fortune cookies and horoscopes. There may well be space aliens but I'm not going to believe in them until I see some evidence. The litmus test for me is "would you put money on it?" If Christians REALLY believed they wouldn't buy health insurance and churches wouldn't have lighting rods.

But there is enough real wonder in the world without having to fabricate it.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 12:18 pm
by Sanjuro
Liv wrote:You know, this whole "we need substantial proof" before it exists crowd, is really make human life seem pretty boring.... I might just start believing in God again, to have fun.



Actually, I tend to balance rationalism with a healthy dose of fancifulness. Although I know there is no evidence, I love a good ghost story or going on 'ghost hunts'. Although I know it highly improbable, I love the urban mythology about area 51's alien spacecraft. I think nothing is wrong with having a good imagination, and one can play in that a bit. The problem is when people start preying on those who really do believe it for monetary gain. Thats no different than the televangelism and is in very bad taste.

*MOD NOTE* I edited the original post to include a pic since it would look better on the front page

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 1:28 pm
by RebelSnake
*MOD NOTE* I edited the original post to include a pic since it would look better on the front page
I was wondering where that came from.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 1:46 pm
by Liv
Good old blog algo.... Seems to be working well... Anyhow, back on track...

I took a nice long shower and got to thinking about this thread, and I wonder.... is the phenomenon of "Love" provable by science? All of us have experienced it (or atleast I hope) but is there proof? Sure you could say, the heart quickens, blood pressure increases.... but that could be said to just be human instinct to breed....

I mean whats to say we really "love" our partners, and in reality it isn't just some excuse to say this person is preferentially liked, and rationally determined as the best cohabitant to ensure survival?

You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you? The idea that there is something genuinely unique about finding that perfect person by some unique and powerful force that exists in the universe.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 1:52 pm
by Sanjuro
Liv wrote:You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you?


Love... well, you see... the thing about love is that... it's a many splendid thing. 8)

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 1:55 pm
by Liv
Love lifts us up where we belong.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 1:57 pm
by Sanjuro
Love.... it lifts me higher. Higher than I've ever been before.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 2:01 pm
by RebelSnake
Sanjuro wrote:
Liv wrote:You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you?


Love... well, you see... the thing about love is that... it's a many splendid thing. 8)

It's a many splendored thing.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 2:02 pm
by Sanjuro
RebelSnake wrote:
Sanjuro wrote:
Liv wrote:You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you?


Love... well, you see... the thing about love is that... it's a many splendid thing. 8)

It's a many splendored thing.


Oh yeah, that too!

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 3:57 pm
by Liv
[youtube]<object width="425" height="355"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/88f0YAX1ojg&rel=1"></param><param name="wmode" value="transparent"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/88f0YAX1ojg&rel=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" width="425" height="355"></embed></object>[/youtube]

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 4:54 pm
by A Person
Liv wrote: is the phenomenon of "Love" provable by science? All of us have experienced it (or atleast I hope) but is there proof? Sure you could say, the heart quickens, blood pressure increases.... but that could be said to just be human instinct to breed...

I mean whats to say we really "love" our partners, and in reality it isn't just some excuse to say this person is preferentially liked, and rationally determined as the best cohabitant to ensure survival?

You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you? The idea that there is something genuinely unique about finding that perfect person by some unique and powerful force that exists in the universe.

If I'm honest I'd have to say that I have developed a deep emotional bond with my partner and that her happiness is essential for me to be happy, which is a good a definition of love as any. Is there no one else in the world that I could not have developed a similar bond with? I doubt it. Opportunity plays an the primary part in it. I doubt I even met as many 0.0003% of eligible girls when I was seeking a mate. No unique and powerful force lifted me to Southern Italy and taught me enough Italian to talk with the one perfect soul mate. I had to select from what was available. After that it's all about building a relationship.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 4:58 pm
by BecauseHeLives
A Person wrote:
Liv wrote: is the phenomenon of "Love" provable by science? All of us have experienced it (or atleast I hope) but is there proof? Sure you could say, the heart quickens, blood pressure increases.... but that could be said to just be human instinct to breed...

I mean whats to say we really "love" our partners, and in reality it isn't just some excuse to say this person is preferentially liked, and rationally determined as the best cohabitant to ensure survival?

You're not going to kill my "romantic" idea of love, are you? The idea that there is something genuinely unique about finding that perfect person by some unique and powerful force that exists in the universe.

If I'm honest I'd have to say that I have developed a deep emotional bond with my partner and that her happiness is essential for me to be happy, which is a good a definition of love as any. Is there no one else in the world that I could not have developed a similar bond with? I doubt it. Opportunity plays an the primary part in it. I doubt I even met as many 0.0003% of eligible girls when I was seeking a mate. No unique and powerful force lifted me to Southern Italy and taught me enough Italian to talk with the one perfect soul mate. I had to select from what was available. After that it's all about building a relationship.


I'm sure you wife appreciates that! :mrgreen:

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 4th, 2008, 5:39 pm
by A Person
While it doesn't sound romantic, there is a word for people trying to select from the unavailable. We call them lonely frustrated virgins. OK that's three words.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 10th, 2008, 4:22 pm
by Guest
RebelSnake wrote:
ghostbusters.jpg


Researchers use neuroimaging to study ESP
CAMBRIDGE, Mass., Jan. 3, 2008 -- Psychologists at Harvard University have developed a new method to study extrasensory perception that, they argue, can resolve the century-old debate over its existence. According to the authors, their study not only illustrates a new method for studying such phenomena, but also provides the strongest evidence yet obtained against the existence of extrasensory perception, or ESP.

BLAH BLAH BLAH


I had a feeling they would come to this conclusion! :)

Seriously, do we really need a study on this? I don't think anyone is going to change their minds based on this study.

Re: No Evidence for ESP

PostPosted: January 10th, 2008, 7:30 pm
by A Person
If new data - or new techniques developed that might allow new data to be gathered - then it's not unreasonable to repeat the investigation. That's good science.

You will never persuade believers their woo woo is wrong, but we can can show it to have negibible probability.