NRA solution to school killings: MORE GUNS!

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

At least they waited a full week before the NRA told us how they'd like to solve the problem. Put armed guards in all the schools... THAT'LL stop heavily-armed, armored nuts from killing school kids.

Just like allowing people to carry concealed weapons to theaters stopped last summer's Batman massacre. And having armed police on campus stopped the Virginia Tech massacre.

I know that getting armed guards into public schools will be a hard sell even for the NRA. But I bet they COULD provide an object lesson by putting their own armed guards into as many PRIVATE schools as they can. I want to see them actually manage to kill some attackers, as they promise they could. Even if it was only ONCE, it would be worth it to see how effective their ideas can be in the real world.

[Liv]

Has anyone heard of fences?

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

And of course, the scum of humanity -- the vulture-lawyers (not to be confused with REAL lawyers) -- are starting to flock to the scene. To wit: a lawyer is asking for permission to sue the state on behalf of 6-year-ol "Jill Doe," who suffered trauma because of hearing "cursing, screaming and shooting" at Sandy Hook Elementary.

He wants the state to cough up $100 million as a result, because obviously, the state should have had armed, armored guards roaming the hallways that day, and every day.

[Liv]

What they should have done (assuming they haven't) is built a fence around the school.

It's pretty common in Europe to have "gated" schools... and makes complete sense to me.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Don't know that it would have helped at Sandy Hook. All outside doors to the building were locked (they have been ever since I was in elementary school, BTW) and the only unlocked doors are at the school office. That's the way the killer got in. It's the way anyone gets into any school. Fences and gates only help in terms of keeping criminals from accessing kids while they are outdoors.

[Liv]

Well, needless to say we don't know unless we build a time-machine. Certainly the lack of a fence suggests there is some liability.

Anyhow, I find it funny we lock up our most precious things, but children sit in buildings with common commercial locks and very little security. How many schools around here have any security cameras?

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Security cameras? I haven't been on any school's grounds in over a decade. I would expect they have security systems commensurate with their budgets... meaning cheapest available if at all.

But regarding government priorities for valuing people, please recall that few, if ANY children of wealthy families or politicians attend public schools. Only working class and poor people attend. So if a PUBLIC school gets blown to hell, chances are most victims will be "surplus population," and no big loss. More like a photo op for the people who would never dream of sending THEIR little princes and princesses there.

What I'm waiting for is to see how militaristic rich folks get with their private schools... especially those that belong to the NRA. So far as I know, there's nothing to keep private schools from becoming military lock-down zones with parents in armor and carrying AR-15s with 100-round mags patrolling every hall. Once you see THAT happening, and see how it works out in other aspects of education... THEN I'll be willing to talk.

[Liv]

So conservatives just proved Darwinism?

Or is that Capitalist Oppression?

Or both?

[royaldiadem]

I like the solution. I am a responsible gun owner and protect my store and home with plenty of fire power.

[Liv]

I like the solution. I am a responsible gun owner and protect my store and home with plenty of fire power.

Have you ever had to use it?

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

I wonder what Jesus would say?

[Liv]

Jesus would not like guns at all in my opinion.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

Yeah, that's the impression I have. I especially recall him saying that if someone steals from you, you should give them more of your goods. Obviously, RD thinks Jesus wasn't serious.

[A Person]

Luke
6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.
6:36 Be ye therefore not merciful, as your Father also is not merciful, but smite them with your rod of iron and thunder, for as you smite them for their sins so will He smite you for yours.
6:37 For forgiveness is weakness and God abhors the meek. There can be no redemption for thieves, only retribution.

[Liv]

Well to be honest, Jesus came to this earth to teach us something... a very important lesson: sacrifice.

My definition of sacrifice is not that of a vindictive gun owner.

Jesus wants us to welcome the thief into our lives when they try to rob us. For us to show him love through our actions.

[A Person]

Well to be honest, Jesus came to this earth to teach us something... a very important lesson: sacrifice.

If Jesus was real then it's difficult to see what message can be drawn from his crucifixion, other than that humans can be pretty nasty at times.

If Jesus was God, and if Jesus really died and was resurrected, then it's difficult to see where the sacrifice was. A crappy weekend for an eternal God isn't much of a sacrifice. Christians seem to regard it as a Get Out Of Jail free card whereby their real and imagined wrongdoings are pardoned without any sacrifice or effort on their part.

Traditional sacrifice means destroying something of value, e.g. a valuable animal or some measure of wealth, or even a child. The Old Testament is full of it. By upping the ante to a purported God sacrifice, Christianity gains maximum benefit (what sacrifice could trump a God?) for the minimum value (the God isn't real, or if it was, it can resurrect itself)

Personally I see no value in sacrifice. If what you are sacrificing is going to help someone else i.e. is charity, then I'm all for it.But if it's just destroying food or money then I see a negative value to it. By all means go without to help someone else, but if you're sacrificing to demonstrate your wealth (look at me, I'm so rich, I can afford to burn this valuable cow) then it's pure vanity.

[Liv]

I agree with most of what your saying.

However, if there was one lesson above any to teach a species, would it not be sacrifice. Sacrifice in a sense of "suffering" for the betterment of others (giving to those in need, being neighborly, kind, caring, etc.)?

Isn't that what most Christians "feel" the sacrifice of Jesus is about anyways?

What was the purpose of God sacrificing Jesus (as to your bad weekend reference), if not a demonstration of how to find your way to him? The most important teaching of the Christian faith... The path to salvation is through love and sacrifice.

(And Atheism, but I'm still working on that hypothesis.)

[A Person]

What you're describing isn't sacrifice, it's altruism.

Realizing that mankind is a social animal and that individuals lead happier, more rewarding lives within a healthy society, means that sharing and not being selfish is more rewarding in the long term.

Our genes worked that out by trial and error, without the benefit of thought.

The path to salvation is through love and sacrifice.

Except that isn't how you gain salvation according to Christianity. There isn't even agreement between the different Christian sects on how you gain salvation, which considering that that is what they're selling is a major failure.

Jesus did say some good things about altruism, but Christians mostly ignore what he said and listen to Paul, or Ayn Rand.

If Atheism teaches anything, it's that this world is all there is and it behooves us to make it at safe and pleasurable as possible.

[Liv]

If Atheism teaches anything, it's that this world is all there is and it behooves us to make it at safe and pleasurable as possible.

Indeed, but religion teaches us to always consider the impossibility of becoming more.

[A Person]

Indeed, but religion teaches us to always consider the impossibility of becoming more.

Religion never asks us to consider possibilities, it instructs about certainties it cannot possibly know about.

I am always willing to consider possibilities, what I will not do is accept as a certainty things for which there is either no evidence or evidence contradicting it.

There may be life after death, I think it very unlikely, but am agnostic about it, in that whether there is or not is unknowable. What I will not accept is that a tribe of nomadic shepherds 4,000 years ago knew any better. Any more than John Edwards really speaks with the dead.

However I am absolutely certain that there is life before death, where people live, love, procreate and suffer. I'm going to concentrate on making the only life we know for sure exists as happy and as free from suffering as it can be, rather than worrying about what people like RD claim an imaginary or speculative being wants me to do.

[royaldiadem]

I wonder what Jesus would say?

Read the Bible to know objectively what Jesus Said.

Oh,... you already read it,.. but you don't believe the EVIDENCE!

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

As always, RD avoids the main thrust of the question by trying to change the subject. I wonder if he ever really wants to hold a mature, honest discussion with anyone in his life...

[royaldiadem]

As always, RD avoids the main thrust of the question by trying to change the subject. I wonder if he ever really wants to hold a mature, honest discussion with anyone in his life...

Tried with you guys before,... but YOU cut off the conversation. Remember? I have fond memories of bulging eyes, bulging veins, raised voices....

I'll happily engage again! May I come to the next meeting? We can have a mature, honest discussion with you on epistemic errors in the atheist worldview.

Sterling

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

I never raised my voice to RD. Ever, either in person or by email.

Those who read this forum will also note that he still refuses to answer a question meant for him on the subject of this thread. This will indicate to readers that he never had any intention of participating in a conversation. As always, his only desire is to disrupt and distort.

Quite a remarkable method for following the "Golden Rule."

[A Person]

Tried with you guys before,... but YOU cut off the conversation. Remember? I have fond memories of bulging eyes, bulging veins, raised voices....

Really? I have never read anything where RD actually engages with any answers to questions - other than with a repetitive squawk of "repent .. repent ... repent"

I'll happily engage again! May I come to the next meeting? We can have a mature, honest discussion with you on epistemic errors in the atheist worldview.

You are at the current meeting. It's right here, please start your mature, honest discussion on what Jesus had to say about arming yourself and the use of deadly force against thieves, that after all is the topic. And please don't just say

Read the Bible to know objectively what Jesus Said.

if you have some particular verses in mind, please quote them. I have read what Jesus is reported to have said - and it's all about forgiving those who steal from you and giving them more

Jesus condones stealing food if you're hungry
Matthew
12:1 At that time Jesus went on the sabbath day through the corn; and his disciples were an hungred, and began to pluck the ears of corn and to eat.
12:2 But when the Pharisees saw it, they said unto him, Behold, thy disciples do that which is not lawful to do upon the sabbath day.
12:3 But he said unto them, Have ye not read what David did, when he was an hungred, and they that were with him;

He blessed the poor and hungry
Luke
6:21 Blessed are ye that hunger now: for ye shall be filled. Blessed are ye that weep now: for ye shall laugh.
6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man's sake.

And was scathing towards those who accumulate wealth and jewels

6:24 But woe unto you that are rich! for ye have received your consolation.
6:25 Woe unto you that are full! for ye shall hunger. Woe unto you that laugh now! for ye shall mourn and weep.

And He tells you not to persecute those who would steal from you but that if someone steals your cloak then give him more

6:29 And unto him that smiteth thee on the one cheek offer also the other; and him that taketh away thy cloak forbid not to take thy coat also.
6:30 Give to every man that asketh of thee; and of him that taketh away thy goods ask them not again.

Jesus does talk of arming yourself - with the mindset of His' suffering, and by forgoing the lusts of men towards women, wealth and jewels

1 Peter
4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of his time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

And He has this to say about those who put their trust in weapons

Matt
26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

But no doubt you can point to the verses where Jesus tells you to take up weapons and smite dead any poor and homeless who might approach your threshold, and to accumulate wealth and fancy jewelry to buy your way into heaven