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Abortion S.L.E.D.

by A Person | Published on January 28th, 2008, 10:42 pm | Religion
If you're being honest (and treating the question seriously) you'll acknowledge that any humane person would save the girl from an horrific and painful death because she is aware and can experience pain and terror. Even if she were sick with a terminal illness she would still unquestionably take precedence over the frozen embryos which are incapable of experiencing anything.
 
 
The reality is that the vast majority of abortions are due to the woman just not wanting the responsibility of a baby. There is no fire. Your example is irrelavent.
All truth passes through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second,it is violently opposed. Third, it is accepted as being self-evident.

Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
January 28th, 2008, 11:27 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
The 'fire' is a thought experiment or Gedankenexperiment, to make it obvious what differentiates an embryo and a child and where the SLED argument fails. That you and Ignorance refuse to address it demonstrates its effectiveness.
January 28th, 2008, 11:46 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
A Person wrote: That you and Ignorance refuse to address it demonstrates its effectiveness.


That line has to be in the running for 'quote of the year' or something. :lol: :lol: ...It's just such a great sentence.
"You can't put the civil rights of a minority up for a majority vote."
January 28th, 2008, 11:49 pm
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Sanjuro
Expert...on everything...
 
A Person wrote:The 'fire' is a thought experiment or Gedankenexperiment, to make it obvious what differentiates an embryo and a child and where the SLED argument fails. That you and Ignorance refuse to address it demonstrates its effectiveness.


The reason I don't want to take it seriously is because your putting two things in an unlikely environment.
Like this:

"If you were driving in a car and you saw a possum on the edge of a skyscraper, would you run it over?"
:|
Jan 29, 2008: Mark this day.. "ignorance is bliss" and I actually completely agree.. now if you'll excuse me I'm going to hurl myself off the building.- Sanjuro
Consider it marked.
January 29th, 2008, 7:21 am
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
Dancebaby-14.gif
Dancebaby-14.gif (63.71 KiB) Viewed 318 times
January 29th, 2008, 10:35 am
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
BecauseHeLives wrote:The reality is that the vast majority of abortions are due to the woman just not wanting the responsibility of a baby. There is no fire. Your example is irrelavent.

Would you please provide credible, scientific evidence of this claim? Specifically, that the woman aborts simply because she "doesn't want the responsibility of a baby", and not because the pregnancy is a disaster in her life due to physical, personal or financial issues. For example, maybe she is unable to finance the care of a baby, or because her parents will kick her out of the house and she is unable to support herself, or the pregnancy endangers her life or health, or the pregnancy will interfere with important life plans such as finishing school, or pursuing a career path.

I don't like women having abortions. But I believe the best way to reduce or nearly eliminate abortions is to prevent them in the first place. With contraceptives. Which certain fundamentalist groups have made very difficult for a lot of women to get. And in so doing, have actually increased the need for abortions.
January 29th, 2008, 11:14 am
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2411798.html

You'll see that reason due to health (which include RAPE) are less than 5.5 % of abortions. You are simply arguing the exceptions instead of the reality. All of the other reasons are self-centered reasons for abortion that could easily be resolved by giving the child up for adoption. The way you speak someone without knowledge would suspect that MOSt abortions are due to the health of the mother or the baby. That is just so misleading.
Attachments
AbortionReasons.jpg
January 29th, 2008, 11:47 am
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BecauseHeLives
 
I don't really see where that chart states "the vast majority simply don't want the responsibility of having a baby". That is NOT what that chart says. You're reading a lot into it based on your own bias I think.
January 29th, 2008, 12:43 pm
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Sanjuro
Expert...on everything...
 
Sanjuro wrote:I don't really see where that chart states "the vast majority simply don't want the responsibility of having a baby". That is NOT what that chart says. You're reading a lot into it based on your own bias I think.


Do you agree that all of the other reasons could be easily be resolved by adoption instead of killing the baby?

Here are the non-health reasons:

25.5% Wants to postpone childbearing (selfish reason and poor excuse to end a life. The timing is a little bit off to be making this decision don't ya thing? Put up for adoption.)
07.9% Wants no (more) children (selfish reason and poor excuse. Poor planning has never been a good reason for murder. Decision has been made. Put up for adoption)
21.3% Can't afford a baby (Who really can? Besides, lots of agencies that can help. Selfish reason and poor excuse. Put up for adoption)
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job (boohoo... majorly selfish. Put up for adoption)
14.1% Having relationship problem or partner does not want child (Boohoo...get some backbone and put up for adoption)
12.2% Feel they are too young OR others object to the pregnancy (again...get some backbone and quit being a lemming. Put up for adoption)
02.1% Other reasons (???)

Most of the reasons above are simply excuses to hide the root of the problem which is a selfish desire to control one's own life without regard for a life that you are ultimately responsible for (whether on purpose or otherwise).
January 29th, 2008, 1:31 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
I see we've given up on the SLED argument.
January 29th, 2008, 2:03 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
BecauseHeLives wrote:Image


The question is: What is that thing in the picture?
January 29th, 2008, 3:01 pm
royaldiadem
 
I'll give some hints...

It's living
It ain't a dog
It ain't a cat
It ain't an alien
A kind only reproduces its own kind.

Give up? :shock:
January 29th, 2008, 3:06 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
BecauseHeLives wrote:
Do you agree that all of the other reasons could be easily be resolved by adoption instead of killing the baby?


I disagree with the method of questioning. If the choice is killing an infant over adoption obviously I would choose adoption. However I am not on board with your beliefs on when human life begins. We would have a major division there. I personally believe every potential human life should be given a shot. I am personally against abortion. Yet I make the distinction there and do not think it correct to make these decisions for others. So then, if the question becomes "Do you agree that all of the other reasons could be easily be resolved by adoption instead of abortion", no I don't. I feel there are plenty of children available for adoption all over the world that grow up with no parents, and only the mother can know what is right for her, the situation, and the quality of life for the potential child.

BecauseHeLives wrote:Here are the non-health reasons:

25.5% Wants to postpone childbearing (selfish reason and poor excuse to end a life. The timing is a little bit off to be making this decision don't ya thing? Put up for adoption.)
07.9% Wants no (more) children (selfish reason and poor excuse. Poor planning has never been a good reason for murder. Decision has been made. Put up for adoption)
21.3% Can't afford a baby (Who really can? Besides, lots of agencies that can help. Selfish reason and poor excuse. Put up for adoption)
10.8% Having a child will disrupt education or job (boohoo... majorly selfish. Put up for adoption)
14.1% Having relationship problem or partner does not want child (Boohoo...get some backbone and put up for adoption)
12.2% Feel they are too young OR others object to the pregnancy (again...get some backbone and quit being a lemming. Put up for adoption)
02.1% Other reasons (???)
Most of the reasons above are simply excuses to hide the root of the problem which is a selfish desire to control one's own life without regard for a life that you are ultimately responsible for (whether on purpose or otherwise)


This demonstrates my point on you injecting ideals into the raw data. But, thats just your personal opinion and you have a right to it. My opinion is that your assumptions are grossly simplistic on the matter.
January 29th, 2008, 3:10 pm
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Sanjuro
Expert...on everything...
 
Sanjuro wrote:
This demonstrates my point on you injecting ideals into the raw data. But, thats just your personal opinion and you have a right to it. My opinion is that your assumptions are grossly simplistic on the matter.

Pretty much the same as all his other arguements.
Life is 10% what happens to you and 90% how you "choose" to respond to it.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote: If you believe things that are contradicted by the evidence, then you are on a path built on falsehoods.
January 29th, 2008, 3:19 pm
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RebelSnake
 
Location: Greensboro
RebelSnake wrote:
Sanjuro wrote:
This demonstrates my point on you injecting ideals into the raw data. But, thats just your personal opinion and you have a right to it. My opinion is that your assumptions are grossly simplistic on the matter.

Pretty much the same as all his other arguements.


Pretty much the same in all of your comments.
January 29th, 2008, 3:25 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
RebelSnake wrote:Pretty much the same as all his other arguements.



This doesn't really help the discussion Rebelsnake.
January 29th, 2008, 3:28 pm
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Sanjuro
Expert...on everything...
 
Sanjuro wrote:
RebelSnake wrote:Pretty much the same as all his other arguements.



This doesn't really help the discussion Rebelsnake.


But it does illustrate the contempt that he has for me as discussed in another thread. He's an angry angry man that is mad at God and has no patience for anyone who professes to be a believer.
January 29th, 2008, 3:30 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
A Person wrote: As development advances more respect is due.



This person kills at a particular subjective level of development.
January 29th, 2008, 3:38 pm
royaldiadem
 
Sanjuro wrote:
RebelSnake wrote:Pretty much the same as all his other arguements.



This doesn't really help the discussion Rebelsnake.

I sorry. :oops: :oops:
January 29th, 2008, 3:41 pm
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RebelSnake
 
Location: Greensboro
royaldiadem wrote:The question is: What is that thing in the picture?
It is a human embryo at 10 weeks and approximately 10x magnification.
January 29th, 2008, 3:42 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
BecauseHeLives wrote:
But it does illustrate the contempt that he has for me as discussed in another thread. He's an angry angry man that is mad at God and has no patience for anyone who professes to be a believer.

Contempt?? Angry?? Man you really don't have a clue do ya? A classic case of open mouth, insert foot.
January 29th, 2008, 3:44 pm
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RebelSnake
 
Location: Greensboro
royaldiadem wrote:
A Person wrote: As development advances more respect is due.

This person kills at a particular subjective level of development.

No not subjective, objective. There are objective differences between an ovum, blastocyct, embryo, fetus, child and adult.

Are you prepared to answer the question: Would you let a child die in a fire to rescue a container of 50 frozen embryos? If not why not?
January 29th, 2008, 3:51 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
BecauseHeLives wrote:You'll see that reason due to health (which include RAPE) are less than 5.5 % of abortions. You are simply arguing the exceptions instead of the reality. All of the other reasons are self-centered reasons for abortion that could easily be resolved by giving the child up for adoption. The way you speak someone without knowledge would suspect that MOSt abortions are due to the health of the mother or the baby. That is just so misleading.

Well, if you allow abortions for rape, then you have already said that one non-health related reason is acceptable to you. I simply do not understand the logic of saying that you (or anyone other than the woman personally affected) should get to decide which non-health related reasons should be acceptable for abortion. If one reason is OK, then there is no logical reason to exclude other reasons. And the fact is, it is HER body and HER life affected. The idea of forcing women to have babies to satisfy the adoption market for infertile couples is rather sickening. It turns those women into unpaid baby factories for the people who want to adopt.

Worse, you are ignoring history. Prior to the 1960s, virtually all unmarried women gave their children up for adoption. And there were so many that it was a "buyer's market" so to speak for adoptive parents. The reality is that now, unmarried women are far more likely to feel they have to keep their babies. So forcing more women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (to the extent that is even possible) because you like adoption can be viewed as extremely exploitive. And probably ineffective since most women keep the unwanted babies they have. Surrogate mothers are extremely well paid for their services. Why put a woman who got pregnant accidentally through the problems, inconvenience and danger of a pregnancy and demand that she give that baby up for nothing. Yes, selling babies can also be a really bad idea. But we allow it for surrogate mothers. When a woman with an unplanned pregnancy gives up a baby, the lawyers and adoption agencies make lots and lots of money from the adoptions. But the poor mother is limited to her medical bills.

I think it is pretty obvious that quite a few more women would carry the pregnancy to term for an adoptive couple if she
1. Got to choose which couple got her baby (from a panel of couples), and
2. Could expect to be paid the $20,000 or so that everybody else is making off HER body.

Not all would carry the pregnancy of course, but again, the best way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is though making contraceptives freely availableto all who want them. Please explain why the fundamentalist preachers work so hard to prevent contraceptives from reaching women who need them! Why did it take years for the morning after pill to be made available, and why in the name of all that is holy do they refuse it to underage girls unless she can get a doctor's prescription? That is crazy because it just causes more unwanted pregnancies.

Poor women often can't afford the $30 or so dollars that oral contraceptives cost, and of course, many women cannot take those drugs because of risk for cardiovascular disease or physical intolerance to them. But the other highly effective methods such as IUDs, diaphragms with spermicidal jelly, tubal ligation, etc. require a physician and can be very expensive. The article you cited noted that up to 8% of women taking oral contraceptives have a failure (that is, an unplanned and unwanted pregnancy). The drug companies say 1%. So, who to believe? Doesn't matter. It is still a pregnancy that the woman took the proper steps to prevent and it happened anyway. Having the baby and giving it up for adoption is a horrible option for the woman. She loses her figure, goes through months and months of discomfort (not to forget having to buy temporary clothing), and then will lose her own baby--something most women are instantly bonded to at birth--and our society demands she get absolutely nothing in return.

And when it comes to their own lives and their own bodies, many women--even those who profess to be anti-abortion--will have abortions rather than let their lives be terribly disrupted that way.

Why not leave abortion decisions to the woman and fund contraceptives and contraceptive education so that very few abortions are ever wanted?

What would you think of that solution?
January 30th, 2008, 4:35 pm
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
BecauseHeLives wrote:I'll give some hints...

It's living
It ain't a dog
It ain't a cat
It ain't an alien
A kind only reproduces its own kind.

Give up? :shock:


Um, that could be my skin. It is living, it isn't a dog, cat or alien. And it reproduces its own kind.
January 30th, 2008, 4:37 pm
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado

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