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Abortion S.L.E.D.

by BecauseHeLives | Published on January 30th, 2008, 5:18 pm | Religion
Well, if you allow abortions for rape, then you have already said that one non-health related reason is acceptable to you.

I've never advocated that abortion is acceptable due to rape. I was simply stressing that health-related and rape abortion reasons are FAR in the minority that women give for having an abortion.

I simply do not understand the logic of saying that you (or anyone other than the woman personally affected) should get to decide which non-health related reasons should be acceptable for abortion.


That's because there should not be any non-health reasons that are acceptable reasons for an abortion. Your logic is flawed because you exclude the rights of the baby. All non-health related reasons to have abortion are simply selfish and self-serving reasons.

If one reason is OK, then there is no logical reason to exclude other reasons.


Again your conclusion is flawed because your false premise that you think I endorse abortions for rape.

And the fact is, it is HER body and HER life affected.


It's not just her body. It's her body and the body of the baby. Two persons here with diffeernt DNA. The woman is not the only victim here (if she is a victim at all). Most cases she is just making a self-serving decision which involves infringing on the rights of the baby.

The idea of forcing women to have babies to satisfy the adoption market for infertile couples is rather sickening. It turns those women into unpaid baby factories for the people who want to adopt.


Yeah... these women are held in a maximum security nazi-like holding area where they are forced to spit out babies year in and year out to satisfy the adoption market. When they can no longer produce babies they'll start harvesting their kidneys. Get real.

Hardly a fair comparison when you consider the abortion industry is a multi-billion dollar market. Giving a baby up for adoption is one of the least selfish things a person can do. Besides, its not about adoption but about doing the right thing and not murdering a child.

Worse, you are ignoring history. Prior to the 1960s, virtually all unmarried women gave their children up for adoption. And there were so many that it was a "buyer's market" so to speak for adoptive parents.


Some stats would be nice for this statement. Links? Even if true it just goes to show that societies pressures back then were more taboo.

The reality is that now, unmarried women are far more likely to feel they have to keep their babies. So forcing more women to carry unwanted pregnancies to term (to the extent that is even possible) because you like adoption can be viewed as extremely exploitive.


That's a very misrepresented statement. I use adoption as an alternative to abortion. You use it as a means for prospective parents to find a child. Adoption as expliotive? Get real. Planned parenthood exploits millions of women each year and I don't see you whining about that. Perhaps its because maybe you have murdered a few babies in your career?

And probably ineffective since most women keep the unwanted babies they have. Surrogate mothers are extremely well paid for their services. Why put a woman who got pregnant accidentally through the problems, inconvenience and danger of a pregnancy and demand that she give that baby up for nothing.


Because as a mother its her job to protect her children. Killing the child to protect it does not qualify.

Yes, selling babies can also be a really bad idea. But we allow it for surrogate mothers. When a woman with an unplanned pregnancy gives up a baby, the lawyers and adoption agencies make lots and lots of money from the adoptions. But the poor mother is limited to her medical bills.


Its not a perfect system but its better than planned parenthood.

I think it is pretty obvious that quite a few more women would carry the pregnancy to term for an adoptive couple if she
1. Got to choose which couple got her baby (from a panel of couples), and
2. Could expect to be paid the $20,000 or so that everybody else is making off HER body.


You are getting stupid. People who sell their babies should be imprisoned.

Not all would carry the pregnancy of course, but again, the best way to reduce unwanted pregnancies is though making contraceptives freely availableto all who want them. Please explain why the fundamentalist preachers work so hard to prevent contraceptives from reaching women who need them! Why did it take years for the morning after pill to be made available, and why in the name of all that is holy do they refuse it to underage girls unless she can get a doctor's prescription? That is crazy because it just causes more unwanted pregnancies.


Education at HOME is the key.

And when it comes to their own lives and their own bodies, many women--even those who profess to be anti-abortion--will have abortions rather than let their lives be terribly disrupted that way.


Doesn't make it right though. People don't make good decisions under stressful emotional situations. That's why abortion regret is so high amongst women who had abortions.

Why not leave abortion decisions to the woman and fund contraceptives and contraceptive education so that very few abortions are ever wanted?
What would you think of that solution?


Abortion is not a right. Its like trying to argue out of a speeding ticket after you got caught speeding. Do the right thing and take the ticket and learn from it.
 
 
This is why we need to get back to the SLED argument. If you believe that abortion is killing a living human then the reason had indeed better be a very good one. If however you do not believe that then the reason is irrelevant.

BHL likes to use terms such as baby, child and murder. These words are chosen deliberately as they presuppose his viewpoint that as soon as an ovum is fertilized it becomes a full person with a moral right to life. Questioner, Sanjuro and myself consider that life starts at some later point. Royal Diadem calls this 'subjective' although he means arbitrary - however fertilization is also an arbitrary point. Parthenogenesis (virgin birth) occurs regularly in animals and has been forced in ape and human ova.

I would like to pursue this. Especially if we can avoid the loaded language.
All stupid ideas pass through three stages. First, it is ridiculed. Second, it is ridiculed. Third, it is ridiculed
January 30th, 2008, 7:40 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
A Person wrote:This is why we need to get back to the SLED argument. If you believe that abortion is killing a living human then the reason had indeed better be a very good one. If however you do not believe that then the reason is irrelevant.

BHL likes to use terms such as baby, child and murder. These words are chosen deliberately as they presuppose his viewpoint that as soon as an ovum is fertilized it becomes a full person with a moral right to life. Questioner, Sanjuro and myself consider that life starts at some later point.

So if you were aborted because of your mother's stupidity, and there is an afterlife, you would think she'd have made a good decision? Everyone has the right to live, thats the way God intended it. 'Moral'? You don't know right from wrong as much as you do red from white.
Jan 29, 2008: Mark this day.. "ignorance is bliss" and I actually completely agree.. now if you'll excuse me I'm going to hurl myself off the building.- Sanjuro
Consider it marked.
January 30th, 2008, 11:20 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:So if you were aborted because of your mother's stupidity, and there is an afterlife, you would think she'd have made a good decision? Everyone has the right to live, thats the way God intended it. 'Moral'? You don't know right from wrong as much as you do red from white.
If 'you' had failed to implant would you think that God had made a good decision? You would have a lot of company on fetus heaven which would out number the 'having lived' by about 80 times.

If the 'soul' is the self aware, conscious part of you, that leaves when you are brain dead, then it enters the body sometime after the 22nd week of pregnancy.

It's also worth remembering that if my father had come 2 seconds later 'I' wouldn't have been born at all - another sperm would have won the race and a slightly different genotype or person would have resulted. Does the potential that might have been 'me' resent me? Of course not, because it never existed except in potentia. Does every ovum and every sperm have the right to life?
January 31st, 2008, 12:12 am
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:So if you were aborted because of your mother's stupidity, and there is an afterlife, you would think she'd have made a good decision? Everyone has the right to live, thats the way God intended it. 'Moral'? You don't know right from wrong as much as you do red from white.

My, you sure do hate women. Portends poorly for your little girls IMHO. Did you not notice that over 50% of the American women cited not wanting to be a single mother as a reason for abortion. If the men would stick around to father the children they create, maybe the women wouldn't feel so desperate to get an abortion. You want to dump the entire burden on women and let the men go scott free.

In any case, you use terminology that most of us do NOT agree with and that makes your arguments worthless to us. A fertilized egg, zygote, blastocyst, and fetus is not a BABY, any more than an egg is a chick. While it is obvious to you that you will never agree with us, can you not see that it should be just as obvious that we will never agree with you that a fetus is a baby?

Instead of using the anti-abortion sledge hammer, why not go all out and support the contraceptive services of Planned Parenthood and other women's health service facilities. Your little idea of that education taking place only in the home is merely a guarantee of more unintended pregnancies. Too many parents teach only abstinence. The human race has NEVER been abstinent and never will be. When will you fundies decide to quit playing in your little never-never land and start dealing with the real world out here?
January 31st, 2008, 6:30 am
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
A Person wrote:If 'you' had failed to implant would you think that God had made a good decision? You would have a lot of company on fetus heaven which would out number the 'having lived' by about 80 times.

God is God, okay? He can do, will do whatever he sees best. If that isn't what you want, get over it, because your opinion doesn't mater. Is that hard to understand, does it put too much stress on your brain? A young women that decides to be loose is *not* God, she's killing what God gave her. Its a gift even if you don't want it. God has a reason for all things.

If the 'soul' is the self aware, conscious part of you, that leaves when you are brain dead, then it enters the body sometime after the 22nd week of pregnancy.

Your soul doesn't leave your body until you die. You know, when the heart stops beating, no blood is pumping and you stop breathing....

Bull. You and the others talk about this as if you remember being in the womb. :|

It's also worth remembering that if my father had come 2 seconds later 'I' wouldn't have been born at all - another sperm would have won the race and a slightly different genotype or person would have resulted. Does the potential that might have been 'me' resent me? Of course not, because it never existed except in potentia. Does every ovum and every sperm have the right to life?

So you claim to have been conscious and aware at that moment, in which you were a sperm?
It doesn't matter what 'could' have happened, only what did happen. And look, you're here, because God intended that way. :D

No, every sperm cell doesn't matter, as long as you're actually trying to implant. Every sperm, or any sperm, isn't a person. Not until it fertilizes an egg cell.
January 31st, 2008, 8:41 am
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:
A Person wrote:If 'you' had failed to implant would you think that God had made a good decision? You would have a lot of company on fetus heaven which would out number the 'having lived' by about 80 times.

God is God, okay? He can do, will do whatever he sees best. If that isn't what you want, get over it, because your opinion doesn't mater. Is that hard to understand, does it put too much stress on your brain? A young women that decides to be loose is *not* God, she's killing what God gave her its a gift even if you don't want it God has a reason for all things.

If the 'soul' is the self aware, conscious part of you, that leaves when you are brain dead, then it enters the body sometime after the 22nd week of pregnancy.

Your soul doesn't leave your body until you die. You know, when the heart stops beating, no blood is pumping and you stop breathing....

Bull. You and the others talk about this as if you remember being in the womb. :|

It's also worth remembering that if my father had come 2 seconds later 'I' wouldn't have been born at all - another sperm would have won the race and a slightly different genotype or person would have resulted. Does the potential that might have been 'me' resent me? Of course not, because it never existed except in potentia. Does every ovum and every sperm have the right to life?

So you claim to have been conscious and aware at that moment, in which you were a sperm?
It doesn't matter what 'could' have happened, only what did happen. And look, you're here, because God intended that way. :D

No, every sperm cell doesn't matter, as long as you're actually trying to implant. Every sperm, or any sperm, isn't a person. Not until it fertilizes an egg cell.


Nice response.
January 31st, 2008, 9:04 am
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BecauseHeLives
 
Questioner wrote:My, you sure do hate women. Portends poorly for your little girls IMHO. Did you not notice that over 50% of the American women cited not wanting to be a single mother as a reason for abortion. If the men would stick around to father the children they create, maybe the women wouldn't feel so desperate to get an abortion. You want to dump the entire burden on women and let the men go scott free.

Are you sure you didn't get a degree in 'jumping to conclusions'?
1. Man and women create, stop trying to dump the entire burden on men and let women go scott free.
2. Did I not notice? You know how many single mom's i ask/get to come to church in a week? :)
3. Image

In any case, you use terminology that most of us do NOT agree with and that makes your arguments worthless to us. A fertilized egg, zygote, blastocyst, and fetus is not a BABY, any more than an egg is a chick. While it is obvious to you that you will never agree with us, can you not see that it should be just as obvious that we will never agree with you that a fetus is a baby?

I don't agree with 70% of the stuff here, it doesn't mean I hear you out. I think you cut my argument out as worthless because you know I'm right. :|

So because you know that psychotic Muslims will never make peace, we should just nuke them?

Instead of using the anti-abortion sledge hammer, why not go all out and support the contraceptive services of Planned Parenthood and other women's health service facilities.

You think that will help? I bet you anything if the 'services of Planned Parenthood' were at its best, 90% of those women will still have have unprotected sex (adultery) , and still get abortions. Wanna know why?

Because they don't want kids.

Your little idea of that education taking place only in the home is merely a guarantee of more unintended pregnancies. Too many parents teach only abstinence. The human race has NEVER been abstinent and never will be. When will you fundies decide to quit playing in your little never-never land and start dealing with the real world out here?

You're right. You know, I give up.

Lets just teach our kids to have sex whenever they want, because their not going to be abstinent. Hell, if they want alcohol and some smokes, who am I to tell them no? I'm just their Dad....But that doesn't matter, because i shouldn't be, because abortion is perfectly OK.
January 31st, 2008, 9:09 am
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
I loved the cartoon. I'm going to archive that one... :)
January 31st, 2008, 9:38 am
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BecauseHeLives
 
If you think that being abandoned by her partner and left to face a pregnancy alone and unsupported emotionally and financially is just one of those things then I guess that's a good cartoon. So what if she's going to have to drop out of school, lose her part time job, get into debt and go on welfare? She should have thought of that before screwing a loser.
DEADBEAT.gif

IgnoranceIsBliss wrote: 90% of those women will still have have unprotected sex (adultery) , and still get abortions. Wanna know why?
Half of women who have abortions were using contraception, which failed.
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:Lets just teach our kids to have sex whenever they want, because their not going to be abstinent. Hell, if they want alcohol and some smokes, who am I to tell them no? I'm just their Dad....But that doesn't matter, because i shouldn't be, because abortion is perfectly OK.
Teach your kids what you will. But they need to know that if they do decide to have sex then they should use contraception. They also need to know that if they do have sex, don't use contraception (or it fails) and get pregnant that they can rely on you for love and support. A young pregnant girl abandoned by her partner and her parents has few choices.
January 31st, 2008, 10:37 am
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
A Person wrote:If you think that being abandoned by her partner and left to face a pregnancy alone and unsupported emotionally and financially is just one of those things then I guess that's a good cartoon. So what if she's going to have to drop out of school, lose her part time job, get into debt and go on welfare? She should have thought of that before screwing a loser.

Exactly. But the answer isn't to kill the living being inside of you.

If you get fired by your boss, have to drop out of school because you can't pay for it, and go into debt and welfare....Are you gonna kill him/her too?

Half of women who have abortions were using contraception, which failed.

There is no written guarantee on any birth control, in which it states "Failed fertilization, or your uterus back!".

Teach your kids what you will.

I don't have children. :)
But they need to know that if they do decide to have sex then they should use contraception.

No. Thats promoting adultery. If they get pregnant, contraception or not, God intended it that way.
They also need to know that if they do have sex, don't use contraception (or it fails) and get pregnant that they can rely on you for love and support. A young pregnant girl abandoned by her partner and her parents has few choices.

I agree. And through love and support, she should have the baby. :D
January 31st, 2008, 6:47 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:Exactly. But the answer isn't to kill the living being inside of you.

If you get fired by your boss, have to drop out of school because you can't pay for it, and go into debt and welfare....Are you gonna kill him/her too?
Which is when we get back to the SLED argument. It's not a living person.

IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:
Half of women who have abortions were using contraception, which failed.
There is no written guarantee on any birth control, in which it states "Failed fertilization, or your uterus back!".
Indeed, but it does show that your suggestion that 90% of women who have abortions are irresponsible and not using contraception.

No. Thats promoting adultery. If they get pregnant, contraception or not, God intended it that way.
That is a problem. This absolutist all or nothing approach does not recognize the relative significance of problems. Chastity may be better than adultery but an unwanted pregnancy is far worse. Abstinence is the least reliable method of birth control in practice if not in theory.

I agree. And through love and support, she should have the baby. :D
When you become a parent you will discover that your children may not always agree with you. As adults they have fully developed minds and the ability and right to make their own decisions. Loving and supporting is not consistent with forcing your decisions on them. That is not treating an adult as a full person but as an inferior. If her decision is to have a the baby then it's easy for you. If her decision is not, then how will you demonstrate your love and support?
January 31st, 2008, 9:07 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
A Person wrote:Which is when we get back to the SLED argument. It's not a living person.

Funny you say that. You should ask the mobile dictionary, Questioner, the definition of living. Ha! One of the is: to occupy a home.

Indeed, but it does show that your suggestion that 90% of women who have abortions are irresponsible and not using contraception.

Take another look at that post. :\

That is a problem. This absolutist all or nothing approach does not recognize the relative significance of problems. Chastity may be better than adultery but an unwanted pregnancy is far worse. Abstinence is the least reliable method of birth control

So. You think that God will pull a virgin Mary on them?

When you become a parent you will discover that your children may not always agree with you. As adults they have fully developed minds and the ability and right to make their own decisions. Loving and supporting is not consistent with forcing your decisions on them. That is not treating an adult as a full person but as an inferior. If her decision is to have a the baby then it's easy for you. If her decision is not, then how will you demonstrate your love and support?

1. As Adults. Once my child is an adult, they are old enough to make their own decisions. If I raised my children the way the Bible says (New Testament), with spiritual guidance and love, ill be OK.

2.I never force decisions on anyone. I strongly disencourage.

3.What they do once they leave my care, concerns only them and God, unless I am directly involved.

4.'Inferior': I am would be older than my child, and on top of that their father. I am the father, and as such, I should receive a certain amount of respect, at least enough so that I can influence my child.

5. As I've already stated, I would continue to love my child, but not support what she does. After shes an adult, its between her and God. All I can do is try to warn her before she drives head-on into reality.

Of Course, you never know. To be completely honest, I can't answer your questions with no uncertainty until I'm actually put into that situation. Then it may be a complete different story. Who knows?

Only God. :D
January 31st, 2008, 9:42 pm
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IgnoranceIsBliss
 
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:So. You think that God will pull a virgin Mary on them?
Nah, just that actual abstinence is extraordinarily hard to achieve. The sexual drive is way too strong.

IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:2.I never force decisions on anyone. I strongly disencourage.

3.What they do once they leave my care, concerns only them and God, unless I am directly involved.
That's my view too. However I think the BHL would like to force his decisions on everyone.

IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:Of Course, you never know. To be completely honest, I can't answer your questions with no uncertainty until I'm actually put into that situation. Then it may be a complete different story. Who knows?
Fortunately I have never been in that position either. But if my wife or daughter ever felt she needed to consider an abortion, I would like it to be her decision, not mine, not yours and certainly not the Religious Right's
January 31st, 2008, 11:11 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
AP... I don't force my opinions on anyone. I post my opinions on the religious forum for all to see. You, an atheist, feel compelled to respond to every religious thread and then claim I "push" my opinions on people. You got nerves buddy.
January 31st, 2008, 11:25 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
I was under the impression that you wish to prevent women from obtaining abortions? That this was the most important issue facing America. If I'm wrong then I apologize.
February 1st, 2008, 12:04 am
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
A Person wrote:I was under the impression that you wish to prevent women from obtaining abortions? That this was the most important issue facing America. If I'm wrong then I apologize.


I DO wish that women would not obtain abortions. I DO wish that you would come to know the Lord. I don't see any arm-twisting going on.

As far as murder goes.... there are already laws on the books for that.
February 1st, 2008, 7:54 am
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BecauseHeLives
 
BecauseHeLives wrote:
A Person wrote:I was under the impression that you wish to prevent women from obtaining abortions? That this was the most important issue facing America. If I'm wrong then I apologize.


I DO wish that women would not obtain abortions. I DO wish that you would come to know the Lord. I don't see any arm-twisting going on.

As far as murder goes.... there are already laws on the books for that.



Just to make sure Im hearing you right. I can infer from that statement that:

1- The abortion issue is an important thing to you, but not the most important "problem" facing America

2- It is your wish that women would not get abortions but you do not believe there should be any new laws making the decisions for them as you believe that people should find Jesus but not pass laws making them do such?
"You can't put the civil rights of a minority up for a majority vote."
February 1st, 2008, 8:28 am
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Sanjuro
Expert...on everything...
 
IgnoranceIsBliss wrote:
Your little idea of that education taking place only in the home is merely a guarantee of more unintended pregnancies. Too many parents teach only abstinence. The human race has NEVER been abstinent and never will be. When will you fundies decide to quit playing in your little never-never land and start dealing with the real world out here?

You're right. You know, I give up.

Lets just teach our kids to have sex whenever they want, because their not going to be abstinent. Hell, if they want alcohol and some smokes, who am I to tell them no? I'm just their Dad....But that doesn't matter, because i shouldn't be, because abortion is perfectly OK.

Yet another stupid argument. Of course I'm right. And the U.S. unintended pregnancy rate proves it. Should we also not teach the kids about the dangers and symptoms of venereal diseases because we don't want them to have sex before marriage?

I taught my kids abstinence, contraception, AND how to recognize symptoms of venereal disease if they ever needed to know that information. Both of my kids have chosen abstinence because the know the FACTS of sex, contraceptives and contraceptive failure and VD. And they have a lot of love and support at home so they haven't needed to seek it in premature sexual relationships.

Why can't you fundies follow the path of Jesus Christ and love people instead of forever seeking ways to hurt them and make their lives even harder?
February 1st, 2008, 10:59 am
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
BecauseHeLives wrote:AP... I don't force my opinions on anyone. I post my opinions on the religious forum for all to see. You, an atheist, feel compelled to respond to every religious thread and then claim I "push" my opinions on people. You got nerves buddy.

Excuse me, but you advocate for laws forbidding abortion in virtually all situations other than the life of the mother. Now putting your opinions into law is about as forceful as anybody can get. So stop lying. You are doing everything you can to force your opinions about abortion on to every woman of childbearing age in this country.
February 1st, 2008, 11:06 am
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
Questioner wrote:
BecauseHeLives wrote:AP... I don't force my opinions on anyone. I post my opinions on the religious forum for all to see. You, an atheist, feel compelled to respond to every religious thread and then claim I "push" my opinions on people. You got nerves buddy.

Excuse me, but you advocate for laws forbidding abortion in virtually all situations other than the life of the mother. Now putting your opinions into law is about as forceful as anybody can get. So stop lying. You are doing everything you can to force your opinions about abortion on to every woman of childbearing age in this country.


Nope. There are laws against murder. It's my right to want those laws enforced.
February 1st, 2008, 11:19 am
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BecauseHeLives
 
BecauseHeLives wrote:Nope. There are laws against murder. It's my right to want those laws enforced.

Abortion isn't murder. If it was, we couldn't abort even to save the life of the mother.
February 1st, 2008, 11:32 am
Questioner
 
Location: Colorado
BecauseHeLives wrote:Nope. There are laws against murder. It's my right to want those laws enforced.

Since you are appealing to law, abortion is not considered murder, not in the Bible and not in the US. You are seeking to change the law to make abortion legally equivalent to murder, so you are being disingenuous when you say you do not wish to force your views on others.

I am not aware of any jurisdiction that does not define murder as the killing of a natural person. i.e. human being who was alive at the time of being 'murdered'. You can't 'murder' a brain dead person and you can't 'murder' a fetus
February 1st, 2008, 12:59 pm
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A Person
 
Location: Slightly west of the Great White North
Questioner wrote:
BecauseHeLives wrote:Nope. There are laws against murder. It's my right to want those laws enforced.

Abortion isn't murder. If it was, we couldn't abort even to save the life of the mother.


But you could classify that as self defense.
February 1st, 2008, 1:20 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 
You can't 'murder' a brain dead person and you can't 'murder' a fetus.


You most certainly can it it certainly does happen. Do you believe that because a person doesn't have a functioning part in the their body that they are LESS of a person. A Fetus is a human and the US allows well over a million abortions (murders) a year.
February 1st, 2008, 1:25 pm
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BecauseHeLives
 

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