Signature Required - An Employees Legality of Signing

[Liv]

So about 4'oclock today my boss came to me and requested I sign a sheet that said I have had a failure to clock in and out at work on 4 occasions. Nevermind that I work in a building that tracks every second we're there and it clearly shows I'm there daily 15 minutes before work, and commonly after. No it's these darn Hand geometry readers that have a fallacy built in. It requires you to enter a personal employee ID followed by the sticking your hand in a geometry reader and it then punches you in. The problem is you can put almost any number in, stick you hand in and it will say you've punched in, even if it doesn't register your hand.

So Fast Forward to today and I'm asked to sign this sheet that says "Screw up again, and your fired." As if to say I purposely do this on purpose. "Screw you, I won't do as you tell me!" Actually I said something like "um, what are the repercussions of me not signing it?" She dodges the question, and hees and haws and says "It's your decision, you make your own choices." , I'm like "WTF? You're *ucking kidding me?" Okay, maybe not... I do say "Can we get clarification on this matter?" So she calls, and gets nobody, and I explain that I'd be happy to sign if the alternative is termination, but that I didn't feel comfortable signing it, because I believe the HGRs are programed to hate me. She eventually gets my signature on some other piece of paper saying that I atleast read the aforesaid material.

I came home, cracked open the laptop and hoped to find some clarification about the legalities of placing your john Hancock on everything. If it's not illegal, it should be. When I work for Verizon in California, the union advised us we didn't have to sign things, and I expected to find some legal precedent for the situation, but I haven't.

So I really wonder. Can a company terminate you for merely refusing to sign something? Should a company really make you sign legally binding contracts just so you can maintain employment? And lastly if you spend your days at work dreaming about coming to work in a Guy Fawkes outfit and blow up the whole damn place, is it time to seek out a new working arrangment?

[A Person]

Your employer is building the docmentation neccessary if at some stage in the future they wish to fire you for cause. You can refuse to sign, however all they need to show is that they had the conversation and informed you of their expectations. If you continue to fail to meet their expectations then they would be justified in firing you.

If you can show that it is not your failure but their equipment that is at fault then you would have a case to appeal dismissal.

I would clearly document your assertion that the equipment is defective and send a copy to your supervisor and the HR Director. You should also point out that your actual time keeping is exemplary.

But if it's that kind of organization then you should polish your resume and peruse the job ads. With your skills in web development you shoudn't find it too difficult.

[Sanjuro]

A Person is right on. Also, it's important to note that if they are starting to get on to you about clocking in on time, it usually means that they are looking for a 'fallback' excuse. Its a popular device to use when someone doesn't like you or your performance but are unable to document it specifically. In other words its possible they want you out on a technicality.

[debris]

If you can show that it is not your failure but their equipment that is at fault then you would have a case to appeal dismissal.

Probably not. If you're like most U.S. workers, you don't really have any legal rights or protection at all in this situation. Unless you are represented by a labor union, or have an individual employment contract that requires good cause for discharge, you are an "at will" employee. That means your employer can fire you for a good reason, a bad reason, or no reason at all. Even if your employer fired you for a bogus reason, you'd have no legal recourse (unless you could prove that the bogus reason was a pretext for illegal discrimination under federal or state law).

Your situation at Verizon was different because you were represented by a union, and therefore protected under the collective bargaining agreement. Also, California has some employee-protection laws that might have applied. I don't know the law in North Carolina, but I'd be very surprised if it provides you with any rights in this situation.

(Obligatory disclaimer: Nothing I say here should be construed as legal advice.)

[Liv]

Well my understanding... and I'm no lawyer, is, even in a "right-to-work" state where you're employed "at-will" , there is still a underlying, unwritten verbal agreement that is "understood" between employee and employer that sets certain standards for employment and termination. I would imagine a "time clock" would hardly be proof of reason of termination under any legal precedence, especially when its 100% provable that the machine can give false results.

Bottom line though, is they want me to sign something that I understand they can terminate, and that I admit to making the mistake. I don't feel I made a mistake, I feel it's a stupid machine that suffers serious programming flaws. But that's beside the point...

Truth is, I'm not giving them anything that ensures they can fire me without proper compensation. They may be able to bully other employees but I have absolutely no qualms with filing a lawsuit against the company. Sure I might not win, but if I'm unemployed, it's not like I won't have enough time on my hands to give them a headache.

It's not like I want it to be this way. I loved working for this company. It's the company, and certain individuals who've made it their personal vendetta to get rid of me, because I don't fit into the mold of a christian robot.

[debris]

Well my understanding... and I'm no lawyer, is, even in a "right-to-work" state where you're employed "at-will" , there is still a underlying, unwritten verbal agreement that is "understood" between employee and employer that sets certain standards for employment and termination. I would imagine a "time clock" would hardly be proof of reason of termination under any legal precedence, especially when its 100% provable that the machine can give false results.

This is a common misperception, but unfortunately it's incorrect. To give an extreme example, suppose an employee is fired for stealing money out of the cash register. The security camera recording proves that the boss stole the money and blamed it on the employee to cover his tracks. The employee still would not have any legal claim for "wrongful termination". She might have some other claim, like defamation, if the boss repeated the false accusation to others. But she couldn't sue over the firing itself.

As I frequently tell people who call me about such issues, this is one of the very best reasons for workers to join a union.

Truth is, I'm not giving them anything that ensures they can fire me without proper compensation. They may be able to bully other employees but I have absolutely no qualms with filing a lawsuit against the company. Sure I might not win, but if I'm unemployed, it's not like I won't have enough time on my hands to give them a headache.

As an employee-advocate, I definitely agree that workers should stand up to unreasonable bosses. Of course, as a union-advocate, I believe workers are better off doing so collectively than individually. Not only is there safety in numbers, but there are specific legal protections for union activity (though unscrupulous bosses violate those laws all the time, pretty much with impunity).

Filing a lawsuit that you can't possibly win, though, is generally a losing proposition. Among many other reasons, its likely to end up giving you a far bigger headache than it does the employer (which can afford to pay a lawyer to deal with its problems).

Perhaps when I get settled into Greensboro I should think about offering some kind of worker education programs?

[BecauseHeLives]

Liv... I don't believe the documentation trail is being made just to terminate your employment but its also being made to deny you unemployment compensation. They could fire you for no reason at all if they choose but that of course would not do well for the morale of those employees left behind and you could easily claim unemployment benefits. Being terminated with just cause makes it very difficult to collect unemployment benefits which can be costly to the company in its premiums.

Just a thought.

[Liv]

Liv... I don't believe the documentation trail is being made just to terminate your employment but its also being made to deny you unemployment compensation. They could fire you for no reason at all if they choose but that of course would not do well for the morale of those employees left behind and you could easily claim unemployment benefits. Being terminated with just cause makes it very difficult to collect unemployment benefits which can be costly to the company in its premiums.

Just a thought.

Oh I suspect that definitely "is" the case. I think they're being careful... especially in concerns to how a legal case could be brought against them... The truth is, they don't want bad publicity, and then know I could make alot of it. Secondly I know some "dark secrets" about business practices that most of the company's clients would not really like. They know I know, and it could very easily be a "whistle-blower" situation. Unfortunately I'm refraining from saying alot on here, but there "is" alot more to the situation then I'm actually saying.

Right now, I'm just looking forward to vacation, and when I come back I'll deal with it then. I'll look for a new job, or they can lay me off with a couple months severance and unemployment. Other then that, they'll get a fight.

[debris]

"Because He Lives" is right that cause is relevant to the issue of unemployment compensation. The typical standard (again, with the caveat that I don't know about NC law in particular) is that a claimant is ineligible for unemployment benefits if she was fired for "willful misconduct," which would include things like refusing to comply with an employer's legitimate directions or failing to follow an employer's legitimate and known rules. Employers love to charge "insubordination", not only to make a case for denying unemployment benefits, but also to send a signal to uppity employees who might forget their place (in fact, my colleagues and I were just discussing this very point over lunch yesterday -- just a hint at the exciting lives of labor & employment lawyers!). It's not for nothing that employment law traditionally goes under the label "master/servant relations"!

[Liv]

What gets me, is under this thinking, my employer could come to me and say here sign this or be fired. That affidavit could say "I give up all my retirement." or "I killed my secretary." What they're basically doing is blackmailing you, or forcing you to sign something as a condition of employment. In this case they're asking me to admit to something, I don't believe I was at fault for doing. They're asking me to waive my rights in order to maintain employed. Doesn't seem right to me.

[Questioner]

Truth is, I'm not giving them anything that ensures they can fire me without proper compensation. They may be able to bully other employees but I have absolutely no qualms with filing a lawsuit against the company. Sure I might not win, but if I'm unemployed, it's not like I won't have enough time on my hands to give them a headache.

Virtually all employee protections have been stripped. A union offers some protection for your job, but that is not complete. The fact is, if they want you gone, you will be gone sooner or later, unless you can gather enough evidence to convince a labor judge that you were terminated on the basis of some kind of illegal discrimination.

Getting your unemployment compensation is a different matter.

You need to get a lawyer right NOW, before you are fired, and get advice. My guess is that he/she will want you to get some sort of documentation that the electronic equipment has messed up. And for that, you probably need to find other people having the same problem. If it is just you, then the probability is that you are not using the equipment properly. You may want to ask somebody from HR to reinstruct you in the correct use of the equipment. Then you might want to videotape yourself "clocking" in and out every single day you do so. Making sure, of course, the videotape has a date and time on it so that you can prove that you followed policy and that either the machine is defective, or perhaps somebody has programmed the machine to randomly drop your entry, so as to obtain proof that you are violating policy.

Yes, I know that sounds paranoid. However, in cases like this, paranoia is merely a heightened state of awareness. Companies have killed people to get rid of them. Why would anybody think a bit of shenanigans with the time clock programming would be out of the pale?

[Liv]

I've thought about it... in fact my phone has a video camera built in.... , but they banned cell phones, cameras, laptops, and all electronic devices from the workplace....

[Questioner]

I've thought about it... in fact my phone has a video camera built in.... , but they banned cell phones, cameras, laptops, and all electronic devices from the workplace....

Nasty! Take a little notebook with you and write down the exact time you clock in and out every day. I've know a lot of labor judges who accept that as just as good evidence as the time clock. And if all your notations agree with the clock timer on the days it DID record your clock in/out, then that is evidence for the accuracy of your notebook, because there is no way you could possibly know which days it will fail to operate correctly.

[Liv]

That's a good idea... it's funny... they even have the IP address of these machines written on top of them... 10-1, I could access them outside of work with a little work.

[Questioner]

That's a good idea... it's funny... they even have the IP address of these machines written on top of them... 10-1, I could access them outside of work with a little work.

Write those down too. But be careful to either use a public terminal or mask your identity. Getting caught trying to access those addresses would almost certainly be grounds for immediate termination for cause.