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Local School Teaches Christian Child Islamic Prayer.

Or Allah for that matter?

Postby Liv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:39 pm

muslim prayer in public schools.jpg

First, let me state though this article is 100% true, I've been asked to change the names/etc. of the people involved because of those affected. I also personally suspect that funding for the school could be heavily effected if this made main-stream media, and they love the school so they said I could post this if I changed the information and didn't use names.

The question is, how do you handle it when your (six year old) daughter comes home singing a Islamic Prayer Song? It's a silly song like what many christian kids are taught during dinner time at home. Such as: (I'm paraphrasing, and making this up, but it was about this bad:)

Bless our friend, bless our food,
Come, oh, Allah and be with us.
In our Islam, grow with peace;


The parents (friends of ours) were shocked when their daughter came home and just happily started singing it. They quickly questioned it, and asked their daughter "Where did you learn that?" The daughter replied, "my teacher". Her teacher is a teacher at a non-religious Triad area charter school. They knew the teacher was Muslim, but didn't expect their child to be taught and required to sing this prayer-song before lunch everyday. The child, unaware anything is wrong, is happy to sing the song. How do you unstick a song (as Dip has asked)? That's what the parents are asking.

Now as I understand it, Charter Schools, are considered public schools because they receive money from the state. Or at least this is what I've told my friends. Due to that, separation of church and state is a requirement. I've come to this conclusion after looking on the Internet and finding stories like this or this:

Charter schools are nonsectarian publicly funded schools of choice that are privately managed. They operate with freedom from many of the regulations that apply to traditional public schools.
cite


What's interesting to me, is so many local people do send their children to Charter schools locally because they're the type of individuals who can't afford private christian schools and want those "values" instilled in their children, though most of them are smart enough not to bring christian prayer into these organizations because they realize here in America we're guaranteed the right to practice our religion and beliefs at home, but not infringe upon others beliefs in (oh say) publicly funded schools.

So of course; the parents, after confirming what they heard was really what they heard, and trying to eliminate any other possibilities. Like it was being taught in a historical context. (It wasn't)- It was done everyday before lunch. They called the vice-principle. The VP said they'd look into it. You would expect a immediate response, but the next day when they asked their daughter: (did you sing your new song at lunch today?)... she advises her parents that she once again was asked to sing this Islamic prayer prior to lunch. This was two days ago, and they're trying to be patient... but I can see how their patience running out.

I'm curious to what advice, perhaps anyone else would suggest that I could might give them from my readers. They're trying to keep this on the down-low. They love the school, and the teacher, and they don't want anything bad to come out of this- but they believe their beliefs are deeply personal, and things such as religion and prayer should be kept at home, taught by them. What do you think?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 2:25 pm

I wonder, first, if this parent would be just as upset had this child come home and started showing off a newly-learned set of Yiddish phrases from a Jewish teacher? In general, I think a little cross-pollination of cultural artifacts like personal rituals is hardly something to be worried about.

I would think, however, that if first-graders are "required" to join the teacher in a religious ritual, it should be investigated. Having already talked to the vice-principal, however, it really can't be "kept low-key." The administration is involved. They need to keep it at that level, and ask for feedback from the VP. If what they hear is unsatisfactory, the only choices are to drop it or move up the chain of command.

Myself, I would have started off with a teacher conference, to see what the teacher's side of the story was and express my concerns before talking to her boss. That step is no longer feasible. It's a shame they may have lost an opportunity to start teaching their kid the difference between cultural learning and religious instruction. They seem to be pretty much locked into getting this teacher into some hot water and teaching their kid to avoid learning even the least thing about an alien culture.
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Postby A Person » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:29 pm

As you say it does depend on how it would be presented, but religion and teaching kids prayers does not belong in school.

Our kids came home from kindergarten singing

Thank you for the food we eat,
Thank you for the world so sweet,
Thank you for the birds that sing,
Thank you God for everything.


Which they had been taught to say before their meal

I didn't bother complaining since the response would have been over the top. (a sort of Christian social fatwa)
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:49 pm

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:Myself, I would have started off with a teacher conference, to see what the teacher's side of the story was and express my concerns before talking to her boss.


I believe their concern was remaining anonymous. Meaning, they were afraid if they confronted the teacher then that teacher may treat the child differently, or less than she would if she had not known it was her, and her parents bringing this to the attention of the school. From speaking with them, I believe it was to best insulate them and their child from any possible repercussions.

In my conversations with the parents there was also the concern that if the teacher has interjected religion in the classroom in this manner, how else is she doing so?
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:50 pm

A Person wrote:
Thank you for the food we eat,
Thank you for the world so sweet,
Thank you for the birds that sing,
Thank you God for everything.




Ever wonder if that may have altered their religious beliefs to a path other than yours in some manner?
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 3:55 pm

Obviously, these parents have gotten a negative initial impression of this teacher. And that is a shame, because there's no way to repair things, only to make them worse. Given the information you've presented, it seems to me that the only real solution is to remove the child from the teacher, whether the teacher is fired or the child is reassigned to a new class. Either way, first grade is going to be disrupted.

Luckily, first grade is not that hard to handle, and getting back on track should be fairly straightforward.
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Postby A Person » Thu Sep 23, 2010 4:02 pm

Liv wrote:Ever wonder if that may have altered their religious beliefs to a path other than yours in some manner?

No. I was educated in the UK where religious education and a service everyday with prayers and hymns was compulsory. It's the social aspect of church and religion that persuades people not scripture or prayers
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Postby smiler125 » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:27 pm

A Person wrote:
Liv wrote:Ever wonder if that may have altered their religious beliefs to a path other than yours in some manner?

No. I was educated in the UK where religious education and a service everyday with prayers and hymns was compulsory. It's the social aspect of church and religion that persuades people not scripture or prayers


I too was subjected to religious education and a service everyday with prayers and hymns. If anything this has pushed me away from religion and also the fact that my parents informed me what my religion was, made me distance myself from it even more. I feel that a religion should be chosen and not decided by your family.
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 6:51 pm

So I just got talking to my friend today, and apparently nothing has been done, and her daughter is still singing prayers.

I am aware of the UK religious requirement, but according to Wikipedia they say 80% of schools don't adhere to it. Is this a change since Smiler and A.P. were wee students? Or were you lucky enough to be in that 20%?

The consensus I'm getting is that it's no big deal, and the parents should just leave things be????
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Sep 23, 2010 7:08 pm

That is not my opinion, Liv. All I did was say that the parents should have expressed their concerns directly with the teacher, and see if a correction could be made there before going to the administration and possibly damaging a professional educator's career unnecessarily. That option is long passed by, now.

Since the vice principal has done nothing, it's time to meet with the principal and get an explanation of why this is happening in a publicly funded school. If the principal won't cooperate, then it's time to contact the school board, IMO.
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Postby A Person » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:14 pm

Liv wrote:I am aware of the UK religious requirement, but according to Wikipedia they say 80% of schools don't adhere to it. Is this a change since Smiler and A.P. were wee students? Or were you lucky enough to be in that 20%?


It has undoubtedly changed. It was becoming problematic when I was at school since Muslims, Hindus, Jews and Catholics were exempted and would file out of assemblies after the announcements and before prayers. They refused to make any exemptions for atheists or agnostics though, which I thought was most unfair. I don't regret religious education though, since the teacher although strongly Christian did permit and enjoy lively discussions and we did do a bit of comparative religion. It seems I read the Bible more than many Christians ever did.

It is worth making a fuss. I did when the High School started playing the Lord's Prayer through the PA. There was a big kerfuffle with the Christian folk all screaming about persecution and removing God from schools (as if a real god would need anyone's permission) but as soon as a legal opinion was obtained it died out immediately.
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 23, 2010 9:20 pm

Honestly if this family was in the U.K., I could understand it.... but unfortunately one of their concerns is losing the ability for their kids to attend the school, because someone else complains so loud the school loses funding. A law is a law so to say. And while I completely agree with the law, and the reasons it was enacted... clearly this could be merely a case of stupidity putting all these students at risk.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Fri Sep 24, 2010 12:56 am

Liv wrote:Honestly if this family was in the U.K., I could understand it.... but unfortunately one of their concerns is losing the ability for their kids to attend the school, because someone else complains so loud the school loses funding. A law is a law so to say. And while I completely agree with the law, and the reasons it was enacted... clearly this could be merely a case of stupidity putting all these students at risk.

What exactly is the fear here? Why should there be a problem for this child to attend this school if the parents take their concern to the school administration and the system hierarchy? I mean, I could see this being a problem if it got picked up by the newspapers, or (heavens above forbid!) RUSH Radio. But if the vice principal has swept this under his rug with no explanation to the parents, the principal needs to get a visit from the parents to discuss BOTH of the concerns: the teacher, and the do-nothing VP. There's nothing wrong with doing that, and any competent professional would recognize this. Give these people a chance to demonstrate that competence before going into a panic.

Likewise, if the school principal fails, then whatever administrator at the central system office that is responsible for that school needs to hear. And if they need to talk with the fricking superintendent... so be it. This is what caring parents should be willing to do if they care that much about this. Not just say, "well, I did MY best, so that's all there is to it."

When my son was in 2nd grade, he had some run-ins with a neighborhood bully at his bus stop. I went to his principal and talked with her. She handled the situation professionally and with a minimum of disruption. But had she not done this, I was willing to go over her head, because I didn't want my son to fear going to school in the mornings. Parents watch out for their kid in whatever way they are able. And they SHOULD work at it with their school professionals. If not, then they should move to another school.
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Postby Jamy » Fri Sep 24, 2010 11:15 am

I honestly would not have given much thought to it aside from thinking "She must be teaching some cultural lesson in class" and that would have been the end of it. It wouldn't have occurred to me for a minute that she was trying to teach "religion" per se....just that they were learning about a different culture and the religion associated with it and learned a little prayer of blessing that they sing. Teaching about another culture's religion in school is not the same as teaching religion or trying to convert people.
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Postby Liv » Fri Sep 24, 2010 1:08 pm

Jamy wrote:I Teaching about another culture's religion in school is not the same as teaching religion or trying to convert people.


I completely agree. However, atleast from what I gather this is a "routine" and non-optional practice not as a part of curriculm, but as a "extra curricular (non optional)" activity prior to lunch.

I'd fully embrace a historical teaching. I'm enjoying the hell out of my world civ. class and our religious discussions, but if my professor started making us bow our heads and pray before class... I'd not be feeling the love.

I've learned crap loads from my wonderful, (and assumed) Islamic French teacher, both about Europe and her own culture. But she doesn't make me do Ramedan with her.
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Postby Liv » Fri Sep 24, 2010 7:16 pm

So the parents had a conference with the principle and the VP today. At first they seemed as though it wasn't outside the law, then after my friends spoke upon several talking points mentioned above, there seemed to be some consensus that there would be action taken. All though it's unclear to what degree.

Apparently the principle states that ze feels that it's okay to lead a before meal prayer as long as its not forced upon students. Though the principle states the child must object to being apart of it. However, what child will object to it? And the parents were never informed.

My friend also found it odd the room they chose for a "private" conversation about the matter had several framed art pictures of the Islamic star and crescent on it. They also took a picture of a Koran sitting on a trophy case in the main lobby with the school's awards... (which I can't post because I promised their privacy.)

Apparently my friend when she picked up her kids today found out that they did learn a new song. A song which I know does have two versions, one religious, and one not. I'm curious to find out more later on and even more curious to find how this all works out.

The parents insisted they didn't feel that their child being forced to be ostracized while the rest of the class prayed for lunch was the appropriate outcome for this situation but this apparently appears to be the answer to some degree.
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Postby A Person » Fri Sep 24, 2010 9:18 pm

Liv wrote:The parents insisted they didn't feel that their child being forced to be ostracized while the rest of the class prayed for lunch was the appropriate outcome for this situation but this apparently appears to be the answer to some degree.

No that isn't acceptable if it is led or encouraged by the school and doesn't get around the school's First Amendment responsibilities. Neither is a 'moment of silence for voluntary prayer' Wallace v. Jaffree (1985)

However individual students may pray before meals and other non-curricular periods as long as the activity is not coercive or disruptive.
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Postby Liv » Fri Sep 24, 2010 10:28 pm

Hopefully their conference with the principle will encourage a course correction, where they seek further legal advice. At least that's the hope.
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 30, 2010 1:00 pm

The verdict and result, at least so far was no song prayer, but a moment of silence preceding the meal.
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:52 pm

Liv wrote:The verdict and result, at least so far was no song prayer, but a moment of silence preceding the meal.

Well, considering we're talking North Carolina, that sounds about as good as you can expect.
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Postby A Person » Thu Sep 30, 2010 2:57 pm

Shame it's already been declared unconstitutional - yet is still being used as a fall back position.
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Postby Liv » Thu Sep 30, 2010 7:05 pm

A Person wrote:Shame it's already been declared unconstitutional - yet is still being used as a fall back position.


Yep, but honestly... you've got to pick your battles....
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Postby A Person » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:00 pm

Should get the local Tea baggers onto it. I hear they're hot on upholding the constitution
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Postby SouthernFriedInfidel » Thu Sep 30, 2010 11:28 pm

A Person wrote:Should get the local Tea baggers onto it. I hear they're hot on upholding the constitution

Correction: They're hot to uphold the constitution that they THINK is in effect. I expect that the percentage of Teabaggers that have read the actual Constitution is pretty close to the percentage of Christians who have read the entire Bible.
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