Pascal's Wager

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

All faith is dispensed by God.

I think its more along the thinking that God KNOWS the choices you will make. Not that he has pre-determined your choices.

Your two statements are contradictory, dude. Do you believe God controls all events or not?

[BecauseHeLives]

Jesus' wager

Actually, Jesus never made a wager, but He did tell people how to get to heaven. In fact, He claimed to be the way to heaven:

"I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but through Me." (John 14:6)

Jesus had a very interesting exchange with Nicodemus, one of the leaders of the Pharisees (the Jews' religious ruling group).7 In this conversation, Jesus told him that he had to be born again (which is where the term "born again Christian" comes from). He explained that being born again was accomplished by believing in Him:

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God." (John 3:16-21)

Conclusion

The problem with Pascal's wager is that the assumption that belief in God is sufficient to get one into heaven is false. Demons believe and are condemned. An intellectual belief simply in God's existence is not sufficient for entry into heaven. One must agree with God and accept His terms for salvation. After all, heaven is a place where we voluntarily give up our "right" to sin, to spend eternity with the Holy One, who will turn us into perfect creatures8 because of our desires to be such on earth.

http://www.godandscience.org/apologetic ... _wager.php

[RebelSnake]

Here you go trying to change the subject again. Pascal's Wager is about playing it safe.

[BecauseHeLives]

Here you go trying to change the subject again. Pascal's Wager is about playing it safe.

You need to go take a pill.

I'm attacking the premise of Pascal's Wager that it is enough to believe in God to enter heaven (when it is not).

[RebelSnake]

You don't seem to understand then.

Pascal suggested that religious believers are simply taking the wiser of two bets: if a believer is wrong about God, there is not much harm to him or to anyone else, and if he is right, he wins eternal happiness; if an atheist is wrong, however, he is destined for hell.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.
{snippy}

The problem with Pascal's wager is that the assumption that belief in God is sufficient to get one into heaven is false.

Seems that Jesus disagreed with you.

[A Person]

I'm attacking the premise of Pascal's Wager that it is enough to believe in God to enter heaven (when it is not).

Pascal's Wager is wrong in just about everything.

Your argument is that the wager is false becase the you don't accept the premise: the premise "belief in God is sufficient to get you to Heaven"

But you've missed the point of the wager. A wager is a bet. He's saying, even if you dont accept the premise it's still a good bet to believe, because the stake is low and the rewards high.

[A Person]

[Liv]

I smell bacon......!!!

[A Person]

I was reading the Qu'ran and it seems God anticipated Pascal's Wager and didn't think a lot of it.

In Sura 2 - The Cow, the Word of God says

2:8 And of mankind are some who say: We believe in Allah and the Last Day, when they believe not.
2:9 They think to beguile Allah and those who believe, and they beguile none save themselves; but they perceive not.
2:10 In their hearts is a disease, and Allah increaseth their disease. A painful doom is theirs because they lie

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

I seem to recall that I read like the first 5 or 6 Suras of the Qur'an several years ago before giving up. Never noticed this particular passage. Interesting. I would expect Jesus or Paul to have thought of this aspect as well... but perhaps they weren't expecting anyone to try and apply logic to the concept of faith.

[BecauseHeLives]

I seem to recall that I read like the first 5 or 6 Suras of the Qur'an several years ago before giving up. Never noticed this particular passage. Interesting. I would expect Jesus or Paul to have thought of this aspect as well... but perhaps they weren't expecting anyone to try and apply logic to the concept of faith.

Mathew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[A Person]

You should read the whole chapter and perhaps the chapters before and after to understand. Of course that doesn't help your position to do that though now does it? ...

7:7 Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you:
7:8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened.
7:9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone?
7:10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent?
7:11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?

[BecauseHeLives]

You should read the whole chapter and perhaps the chapters before and after to understand. Of course that doesn't help your position to do that though now does it? ...

I might add that it helps when you understand what you are reading. Atheists love to throw around scripture like yours above when they have no idea what it is about or who the scripture is talking to. Typical AP.

[A Person]

Jesus was talking to 'the multitude', using straightforward prose.

You may not like what he said, but that's not surprising, few so-called Christians do, so most just ignore him and listen to Paul (the Turkish version of Beck)

[BecauseHeLives]

Jesus was talking to 'the multitude', using straightforward prose.

You may not like what he said, but that's not surprising, few so-called Christians do, so most just ignore him and listen to Paul (the Turkish version of Beck)

Mathew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[A Person]

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

[BecauseHeLives]

Matthew 7:5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.

You aren't my brother.

Mathew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

So that whole story about the "good samaritan" -- that was just bullshit, right? Jesus really taught you that you're better than others, based on your beliefs? We're dogs... or is it pigs?

[BecauseHeLives]

So that whole story about the "good samaritan" -- that was just (expletive), right? Jesus really taught you that you're better than others, based on your beliefs? We're dogs... or is it pigs?

Well, Jesus does call those who do not believe in God a fool. Take it up with Him if you don't like it. Would you rather be a fool or swine?

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

All I ask is that Christians follow Jesus' instruction to love everyone. How difficult is that, really? I mean, you are so ready at any opportunity to call us dogs or hogs or fools. Where exactly is the love in that?

[BecauseHeLives]

All I ask is that Christians follow Jesus' instruction to love everyone. How difficult is that, really? I mean, you are so ready at any opportunity to call us dogs or hogs or fools. Where exactly is the love in that?

Where does it say God is only love? Even Jesus became angry at people and called them undesirable names. Don't be a fool. God is real.

[A Person]

Well, Jesus does call those who do not believe in God a fool. Take it up with Him if you don't like it.

Really? "You should read the whole chapter and perhaps the chapters before and after to understand"


23:13 But woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye shut up the kingdom of heaven against men: for ye neither go in yourselves, neither suffer ye them that are entering to go in.
23:14 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayer: therefore ye shall receive the greater damnation.
23:15 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye compass sea and land to make one proselyte, and when he is made, ye make him twofold more the child of hell than yourselves.
23:16 Woe unto you, ye blind guides, which say, Whosoever shall swear by the temple, it is nothing; but whosoever shall swear by the gold of the temple, he is a debtor!
23:17 Ye fools and blind: for whether is greater, the gold, or the temple that sanctifieth the gold?

Seems he is talking about hypocritical greedy preachers who think they alone have access to the Kingdom of Heaven

[SouthernFriedInfidel]

All I ask is that Christians follow Jesus' instruction to love everyone. How difficult is that, really? I mean, you are so ready at any opportunity to call us dogs or hogs or fools. Where exactly is the love in that?

Where does it say God is only love? Even Jesus became angry at people and called them undesirable names. Don't be a fool. God is real.

I did not say anything about "god is only love." I merely pointed out that Jesus told his followers that he had only 2 great commandments. One was "to love your neighbor as yourself." Why is this so difficult for you and so many other Christians to follow?

[BecauseHeLives]

All I ask is that Christians follow Jesus' instruction to love everyone. How difficult is that, really? I mean, you are so ready at any opportunity to call us dogs or hogs or fools. Where exactly is the love in that?

Where does it say God is only love? Even Jesus became angry at people and called them undesirable names. Don't be a fool. God is real.

I did not say anything about "god is only love." I merely pointed out that Jesus told his followers that he had only 2 great commandments. One was "to love your neighbor as yourself." Why is this so difficult for you and so many other Christians to follow?

This was your strawman. So wrong in so many ways.

So that whole story about the "good samaritan" -- that was just (expletive), right? Jesus really taught you that you're better than others, based on your beliefs? We're dogs... or is it pigs?