Toyotas? They work fine, it's the stupid American drivers.

Toyotas? They work fine, it's the stupid American drivers.

by Liv | Published on February 5th, 2010, 4:02 pm | Sports

In other news, Toyota announced a recall was no longer necessary to prevent hordes of random Toyota owners from flying into buildings at full throttle because of a stuck accelerator pedal. President of Toyota, U.S.A., said owners simply can use a relatively unknown safety feature to shut off the engine and stop the car. When asked what this magically safety fix was, he replied the ignition switch: "You just turn the keys to the off position, and the car stops going forward."

I'm quite sure he didn't.

At the risk of spoiling a joke, braking and putting the car in neutral is all that is required. Tuning the engine off stops power braking and steering and risks engaging the steering lock. it would be a very foolish thing to do until the car is stationary.

Normal humor resumes after this message from the HSE dept.

A Person wrote:

Normal humor resumes after this message from the HSE dept.

Thanks, AP!

Can you imagine if you went back in time about 15 years ago, and told everyone that in 2010 Toyotas are unreliable and Hyundai is one of the most reliable?

Boy, the stuff that's coming out from Toyota these days, about the drive to cut costs, is making this look more and more like the days of the Ford Pinto. I wonder if Mr. Toyota ever studied what happened to Ford over that particular debacle? Would history be repeating itself had he bothered to do a little studying?

I've never been all that impressed with Toyota. I'll admit, like everyone I was attracted to the Prius novelty, but honestly I can't see myself owning a Toyota now that I've snapped out of it.

I remember the Camrys back in the 90s when they were all the rage. We had an assortment when I worked for Avis, and found the Camrys bland, and rather cheaply constructed compared to Hondas and even some domestics at the time.

I also owned a 94 Toyota Pup brand new, and from the day I got it the valves ticked. Compared to my Honda Civic there was no comparison. Toyotas just don't seem as refined to me. They may have a good drive-train (despite being loud) but I've never quite seen how they acquired the reputation or the respect they did.

I had an 84 Tercel 4wd wagon. It was a fantastic car and I loved it. I had it for 16 years and 225,000 miles and it went down Mano-a-Mano with a moose. (or should it be Auto-a-Alces?)

In 16 years I replaced the alternator and a drive shaft boot. It still had the original muffler.

When I was looking for a replacement in 2000 I just wasn't impressed with Toyota's lineup. It was a shame because I was very predisposed to buy one, but the Subaru Legacy was the kind of vehicle I wanted and Toyota didn't make anything like it anymore.

A Person wrote:I had an 84 Tercel 4wd wagon.

I think those vehicles were Toyota's high-point. I almost bought an early 80's Tercel down in Oxnard when I moved to California in 99. Unfortunately it wouldn't start so they sold me a Camaro. Oddly the Camaro was one of the most reliable cars I've ever owned and was going strong till Shan rear-ended some poor guy in a turn lane.

I've wanted a Toyota for a long time, myself. But when it came time to buy a new car, we went to the local car dealers and shopped around to be sure we got a good deal... and the Greensboro Toyota dealer (Rice Toyota) has failed every time. It's not the cars -- it's the sales people we encounter.

They suck. Seriously, every time I have walked onto their lot, invariably, the sales person has something wrong with them. They're either stuck up, or they're uninterested in selling lower-end cars, or they make up stupid cover stories when asked slightly tough questions. The last time we went there looking for a used car, we got a real gem from the 70's... the guy was wearing some weird green and yellow zoot suit and two-tone loafers. He seemed to think that his best way to sell us on his cars was to try and "warn" us about how awful all the other dealers in the area were. They sure know how to pick them over there at Rice...

So we've been fans of Honda for man years. But the Greensboro Honda dealer lost our business several yars ago when I complained to them about a servicing error of theirs and they completely ignored me. So wen it comes time to shop for a car, we look elsewhere.

The best dealer experience I had was Asheboro Honda. We were living in Greensboro at the time and drove down there, but they sold me a Civic for 2500 less than the dealer in Greensboro, and stayed late to sell it. Of course this was 15 years ago... So I can't if they're still operated in the same manner.

My Toyota came from Rice, though Dad took care of much of it.

I see here that Toyota has claimed that it's impossible for their electronically controlled accelerator system to malfunction.

Given a couple of points in my experience, this raises a red flag.

1) The more complex a system, the more chances there are for errors to creep in.

2) Given that there are stories from people experiencing accelerations that seem to be independent of each other and remarkably similar, a problem of SOME sort appears to have entered the system, regardless of the assurances of the engineers.

It should be looked into. And as Liv mentioned... people should be prepared to kill the engine if needed. Assuming that the electronic problem doesn't disable to bloody key.

Toyota do not say "it's impossible for their electronically controlled accelerator system to malfunction."

They say "such a problem is unlikely" and "We are confident that no problems exist with the electronic throttle control system in our vehicles," Lentz said in a prepared statement. "We have designed our electronic throttle control system with multiple failsafe mechanisms to shut off or reduce engine power in the event of a system failure."

Gilbert spoke shortly after Rhonda Smith, a Lexus owner who experienced an episode of high-speed unintended acceleration in her ES350. The car revved out of control shortly after she entered the highway, she said, and neither the brakes nor shifting the car into neutral or reverse brought it to a stop.

"After six miles, God intervened," she said, and she was able to bring the car to a stop.

There isn't a car made that will drive over its brakes - and definitely not if it's put into neutral. Turning the ignition off is a really bad idea.

Representatives of both Toyota and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told her that what she had experienced could not have happened, she said.

No kidding.

It's worth remembering that not all reported problems have a physical source - especially accelerator issues. The so-called Audi Accelerator Problem almost destroyed Audi in the US and was never shown to be anything other than driver error.

As far as bang for the buck goes it is REALLY hard not to look at the Kia lineup. I bought a new 2011 Kia a few weeks ago and it was heads above Honda, Toyota and Nissan is price and warranty. Even the features were in many ways better and more abundant than you find with Hondas.

I've never owned one, but I've rented a few and I agree. Very good value and the quality that was missing a decade ago seems to be there now. They drive quite well too.

BecauseHeLives wrote:As far as bang for the buck goes it is REALLY hard not to look at the Kia lineup. I bought a new 2011 Kia a few weeks ago and it was heads above Honda, Toyota and Nissan is price and warranty. Even the features were in many ways better and more abundant than you find with Hondas.

Oh you would! I'll not buy a Kia simply because of their marketing choices... yo gabba gabba and effing sock monkey.

I guess you'll be safe in your's while I'm waiting for my Matrix to freak out and zip off mach 6.

Seriously though, I'm still not that worried about my car. I honestly feel like I know what to do if the accelerator sticks; I-85 will be my drift racing playground!!! :lol:

A Person wrote:Toyota do not say "it's impossible for their electronically controlled accelerator system to malfunction."

They say "such a problem is unlikely" and "We are confident that no problems exist with the electronic throttle control system in our vehicles," Lentz said in a prepared statement. "We have designed our electronic throttle control system with multiple failsafe mechanisms to shut off or reduce engine power in the event of a system failure."

The fact that the stories of control failures are rare but consistent indicates that the "unlikely" is happening, and that their confidence in their failsafes is misplaced. IMO, they had better start looking quite a bit deeper than putting a fix into the pedal mechanism.

I'm sure they are. I'm also sure that the mechanical problem they discovered is real and the issue with floormats jamming the pedals is also real. I accept that there could be a problem with the cruise control, but have seen so credible reports that there is.

However when a woman tearfully says that her car ran away from her for five minutes and that braking and putting the car in neutral or reverse did nothing then I call bovine excreta.

Just out of interest I tried this experiment today. I was driving at 70mph and put one foot hard down on the accelerator and at the same time put the other on the brake. The car came to a quick controlled halt despite the 170hp pushing it along and the engine stalled at around 10mph. Hey BHL you try it, I bet even your beast will stop docilely if you brake - no matter what is happening to the gas pedal. Of course SFI's golf cart wouldn't accelerate against a strong head wind

I can see that having the accelerator jam on could be disconcerting and could cause an accident, but the suggestion that it could run away with the driver for more than a few seconds is ludicrous. The new ownersof the car have no problems in 27,000 miles.

The same kind of reports circulated about Audi and it turned out to be driver error and bandwagon jumping. Indeed the same kind of reports circulate all the time against cars from all manufacturers. Just now Toyota are in the spotlight and even silly claims are given airtime.

Representatives of both Toyota and National Highway Traffic Safety Administration told her that what she had experienced could not have happened, she said.

I wonder if my car (which has a push button ignition) would turn off if I pressed the button going 70mph. I'm not going to experiement with it.

A Person wrote:I'm sure they are. I'm also sure that the mechanical problem they discovered is real and the issue with floormats jamming the pedals is also real. I accept that there could be a problem with the cruise control, but have seen so credible reports that there is.

However when a woman tearfully says that her car ran away from her for five minutes and that braking and that braking and putting the car in neutral or reverse did nothing then I call bovine excreta.

Well, it's all a mystery to me, which is probably why I tend to give credence to such reports more than you. Considering the amount of changes in cars over the past couple of decades, the extent to which mechanical controls have given way to electronic controls with no physical connection to the things being controlled, I find it easy to imagine systemic failures that bypass the designed failsafes.

I know that Toyota had an engineering firm test their cars for the reported failures, and those tests came back negative. I haven't heard of anyone testing the actual cars that were reported to have failed -- but I sure hope they did a forensic work-up on them. People dying over "bovine excreta" is still something to take a serious look at.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:Considering the amount of changes in cars over the past couple of decades, the extent to which mechanical controls have given way to electronic controls with no physical connection to the things being controlled, I find it easy to imagine systemic failures that bypass the designed failsafes.

I agree with that - but my point is that even if the electronics and fail-safes are overridden by my size 10's pushed firmly to the floor - the car can still be operated and brought to a safe stop by normal use of the brakes. That's why I'm calling meadow muffins on this story.

My argument is not that electronics can't go wrong but that even if they did it wouldn't - couldn't - have the effect she describes. I'm sure she's sincere but she's mistaken. There is nothing electronic on a car that would disable the brakes - that would be a far more serious issue than the accelerator one - and a cars brakes will always overpower its engine especially if she got the car into neutral as she claims.

Now I could imagine a scenario where the floor mats or something else trapped the accelerator pedal and possibly prevented the brake pedal from being fully depressed - but she's declaring that wasn't what happened. It seems to me that real problems are being mixed with misdiagnosed ones.

A Person wrote:My argument is not that electronics can't go wrong but that even if they did it wouldn't - couldn't - have the effect she describes.

This calls to question the point I was trying to imply earlier. We know the accelerators in these cars have no simple mechanical lever system to operate the engine. What about the brakes, or for that matter the gear shift? We know, for instance, that Prius brakes are shut down because of software errors in certain circumstances. I do not know for a fact that my gear shift has a purely mechanical connection to my automatic transmission.

I would HOPE there is one for manual transmissions (and definitely for emergency brakes), but these days, who knows what gizmos have been incorporated to these cars that make it FEEL like you're operating old-style mechanical controls, when in fact they're digital?

I admit I"m speculating in a near-vacuum. But I'd sure like to know more details than seem to be available at present. You say you've not seen any credible reports of this acceleration problem. CNN says that State Farm has a collection of over 900 reports from 2003 onward. How much of that might indicate stuff we would not think is possible, as opposed to dumb-ass floor pad issues, who knows? Some reports say those can be whittled down to a few dozen cases that point to electronics. I'll be interested to see how that plays out.

SouthernFriedInfidel wrote:What about the brakes, or for that matter the gear shift? We know, for instance, that Prius brakes are shut down because of software errors in certain circumstances

That's not quite correct. The Prius has an anti-lock braking system and under some circumstances when it hit a bump the ABS would kick in when it wasn't supposed to - causing the brakes to release momentarily. That's not the same as shutting down the brakes. The cars still stopped - and would even if the accelerator was forced on.

Obviously these things are important - but when the focus is on legitimate problems we don't want to be led astray by misdiagnosed ones. There is also no reason to suppose fly by wire is any less safe than mechanical linkages.

I agree with A.P. in this case, and found that chick somewhat like she was seeking a settlement....

They did show on the news where they shorted out the pedal and it did indeed reproduce the results that some are reporting....

Although I admit we must take into consideration the ditsy-ness of the average American driver, I still find it somewhat Darwinistic that these people are just sitting there and not taking action in lieu of ramming buildings.

I still haven't taken my car in for the fix. Anyone wanna roadtrip with me? We can hit Johnson's! Might even be literally.

I'm sure I sound insensitive, given the fatal accidents that have cited the accelerator as the cause, but I have to make light of the situation. I have one car. I have to go to work. I think drivers get fixated on making their first solutions work (like using the footbrake) and fail to move on to another solution (like throwing the car into neutral).