BecauseHeLives wrote:The great majority of women who choose abortion do so for "health" reasons. The reason they most give is that they don't want a baby right now. That's their mental health position. I've shown CDC stats that back this up.
ecofox wrote:.....http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.asp Very religious? Really?
Questioner wrote:ecofox wrote:.....http://www.justfacts.com/abortion.asp Very religious? Really?
Are you really trying to promote that site as factual and scientific? Just because the authors insist their biased reporting is "factual". Good grief.
Justfacts.com wrote:Just Facts is a non-profit research and educational institute that began as an informal endeavor in 1997 and was formalized a 501 (c) 3 organization in November 2007.
...
Our commitment to accuracy and exhaustive documentation have resulted in Internet links from government entities at the local, state and national levels, universities, non-profit organizations, radio shows, and newspapers. Visitors to this unique resource number in the millions, and numerous notes of appreciation from our readers underscore the impact of this worthwhile endeavor.
....
We are committed to objectivity and will report any fact that meets the criteria below, regardless of the implications.
Standards Of Credibility
* Facts: Every effort is made to keep the facts as plain as possible. The use of adverbs and subjective adjectives is limited.
* Excluded Facts: The only "facts" excluded are those that are rendered pointless by other facts and those that do not meet the Standards of Credibility listed here.
* Accuracy: Every fact is footnoted and thus, each stands or falls on its own merits. The newer sections are more scrupulously documented, and readers can click on each footnote to view the relevant data. Before citing a source, investigative and feasibility studies are often performed to confirm and eliminate information. Some of the content on Just Facts acutely illustrates how prestigious media entities sometimes provide erroneous and/or misleading information. Obviously, no one is above making a mistake, and in the world of politics, deception is rampant. By publishing detailed source information, readers have a tool at their disposal to help them in forming independent judgments.
* Minor Discrepancies: These are resolved by using the figures and facts that are contrary to our viewpoints. For example, it is our opinion that taxes are too high. Thus, if two credible sources list slightly different effective tax rates; say for example 21% and 23%, we use the 21% figure.
* Conclusions and Quotes: Every effort is made to keep quotes within context. Conclusions and quotes made by people with vested interests are excluded except to point out inconsistencies and hypocrisy.
* Incomplete Data: Facts are excluded if critical information is unaccounted for. Example: A study determines that under a certain proposal, “taxes for the average family will increase by $700 over the next four years.” This would be excluded if the study did not account for inflation, which may add $300 to the average tax bill regardless of whether or not the proposal is adopted.
* Balance: Our goal is accuracy, not balance. Press outlets often provide quotes from people on opposing sides of an issue. This in our opinion, is a charade. First, there is nothing to prevent a news source from quoting the most compelling argument from one side and the weakest of the other. Second, such soundbites are often loaded with rhetoric and misinformation. Our purpose is to publish objective facts regardless of the views they support, not to circulate half-truths and propaganda.
Elective termination of pregnancy remains common in the United States and worldwide. Accurate statistics have been kept since the enactment of the 1973 US Supreme Court decisions legalizing abortions.
Since the 1973 decision, approximately 1.3-1.4 million abortions have been performed annually in the United States.
Abortion is one of the most common medical procedures performed in the United States each year.
Medical termination of pregnancy with mifepristone was approved in the United States in 2000 and is used in 31 countries worldwide. Approximately half of all abortions are performed with this method.
More than 40% of all women will end a pregnancy by abortion at some time in their reproductive lives. Based on estimated lifetime risk, each American woman is expected to have 3.2 pregnancies, of which 2 will be a live birth, 0.7 will be an induced abortion, and 0.5 will be a miscarriage. Using 1996 data, this translates into 3.89 million live births, 1.37 million abortions, and 0.98 million miscarriages.
Worldwide, some 20-30 million legal abortions are performed annually, with another 10-20 million abortions performed illegally(see The Alan Guttmacher Institute). Illegal abortions are unsafe and account for 13% of all maternal mortality and serious complications. Death from abortion is almost unknown in the United States or in other countries where abortion is legally available.
Questioner wrote:ecofox wrote:What gray area?
How do you define it?
First of all, perhaps we do agree on one thing: There are situations in which abortion is the only way to save the life of the mother, and I enumerated several of those in my earlier post. Do we agree that those situations are not grey areas and that both you and I agree that abortion is morally justified in those situations? I hope so.
Vitro Fertilization
In Vitro Fertilization is commonly referred to as IVF. IVF is the process of fertilization by manually combining an egg and sperm in a laboratory dish. When the IVF procedure is successful, the process is combined with a procedure known as embryo transfer, which is used to physically place the embryo in the uterus.
Because as I said earlier, Nadia is one in a million... So do you consider it better to let all of them die rather than abort all but 2 of the fetuses?
Second, there are situations in which the physical life of the mother is not immediately threatened, but her health is at great risk. These may be considered grey areas by some people. Not by me. I believe a woman has a right to take whatever action is necessary, including abortion, to preserve her health.
These are just a couple of the complications of pregnancy which can lead to permanent liver or kidney failure for the mother if the pregnancy is not terminated. But as “A Person” said, you aren’t interested in the truth. You only care about pushing your anti-woman agenda. So I won’t bother to enumerate all the potential pregnancy complications that can leave the woman physically damaged for life, and often shorten her life significantly.
I suspect you don’t consider profound depression and suicidal ideation to be a reason for abortion. Some women do, in fact, get so depressed during pregnancy that they are at extremely high risk for suicide. ... You would rather take the chance that she won’t successfully kill herself during the pregnancy. But remember, if she does kill herself, the fetus dies anyway.
Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy and childbirth.
Questioner wrote:BecauseHeLives wrote:The great majority of women who choose abortion do so for "health" reasons. The reason they most give is that they don't want a baby right now. That's their mental health position. I've shown CDC stats that back this up.
And that is a reason to ban abortions for reasons of preserving the mother's life or health? You never seem to answer that question.
BecauseHeLives wrote:I've answered that question to you many times before but you refuse to listen. Typical. I've always said that if the mother's life is really in danger then its her call on an abortion. The problem here is your definition of the mother's health. You interpret the mother's health to be mental health (such as "I think a baby will interrup the plans I have for my life"). Unfortunately, too many people interpret "health" to be anything that might cause the woman mental uncomfort.
ecofox wrote:You are over complicating a very simple issue. Should people be allowed to kill baby's while its in the mothers womb or not? I say they shouldn't unless it's a life or death situation and in that scenario the choice should be left to the mother.
I specifically chose her because she successfully carried those 8 fetuses to a stage where they were viable. As I explained, she is extremely RARE. Most women would have miscarried all or died themselves prior to the time their fetuses were viable.EcoFox wrote:Octomom is a bad example. Why would you cite someone who implants 7 embryos (one split into twins) in her womb risking her life and the lives of those inside of her?
EcoFox wrote:Questioner wrote:I suspect you don’t consider profound depression and suicidal ideation to be a reason for abortion. Some women do, in fact, get so depressed during pregnancy that they are at extremely high risk for suicide. ... You would rather take the chance that she won’t successfully kill herself during the pregnancy. But remember, if she does kill herself, the fetus dies anyway.
So your solution would be kill the fetus and she will feel happy and go on to live a life full of joy and wonder?
Most likely she will be even more depressed and then kill herself.
EcoFox wrote:Although pregnancy weakens suicidal impulses, there is strong evidence that abortion dramatically increases the risk of suicide. According to a 1986 study by researchers at the University of Minnesota, a teenage girl is 10 times more likely to attempt suicide if she has had an abortion in the last six months than is a comparable teenage girl who has not had an abortion.(2) Other studies have found similar statistical significance between a history of abortion and suicide attempts among adults. Thus, the actual data suggests that abortion is far more likely to drive an unstable woman to suicide than is pregnancy and childbirth
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/ab ... uicide.asp .
Does killing baby's makes everything better?
Questioner wrote:I never said that the whim or convenience of the woman is a good reason for abortion. Other than failed birth control , that is using abortion as a means of birth control and I have been very clear that is a terrible, irresponsible path to follow.
Questioner wrote:It is WAY better to prevent a pregnancy than to deal with an unwanted pregnancy after the fact.
Questioner wrote:(Did you know that fewer women die from abortion than from childbirth?)
More physicians are now aware of the new studies proving that death rates associated with abortion are far higher than death rates associated with childbirth, thanks to a letter from the Elliot Institute's director, Dr. David Reardon, that was published in the prestigious New England Journal of Medicine. The letter was published as one of three critical responses to an article the journal had previously published regarding partial birth abortions.
Questioner wrote:Just assuming only 10 million sexually active women use chemical or mechanical contraceptives, that means there are about 100,000 contraceptive failure pregnancies every year.
Questioner wrote:You evidently do. But then I use terms correctly. The term “baby” refers to a born mammal. A fertilized egg is a zygote, not a baby. An embryo is the product of conception from first division of the zygote to just about 2 months gestation. From about 2 months until birth it is called a fetus. Only after birth is the product of conception properly called a “baby”.
At 8 weeks, this baby can kick and straighten his legs, and move his arms up and down.
The annoying thing is that people like you and “EcoFox” have decided that your opinion is “Truth” and that everybody else who holds a different opinion is evil and murderous.
The next time you or EcoTruth or another one of you fundamentalist idiots decide to ask me how many people I’ve killed, maybe you should first be prepared to tell me how many lives you have SAVED.
ecofox wrote:I know I would not like to be aborted. Would you?
And don't waste time telling me they should just put the child up for adoption. Have you any idea how hard that is? Particularly if you are a married coup;le and your entire family and circle of friends know you were pregnant? Worse, there is no adoption "market" for such children. So giving it up means condemning the child to a foster home at best, and more likely an endless number of different fostor homes because the burden of care for such a child is such that most foster families grow exhausted and give the child up.
BecauseHeLives wrote:And don't waste time telling me they should just put the child up for adoption. Have you any idea how hard that is? Particularly if you are a married coup;le and your entire family and circle of friends know you were pregnant? Worse, there is no adoption "market" for such children. So giving it up means condemning the child to a foster home at best, and more likely an endless number of different fostor homes because the burden of care for such a child is such that most foster families grow exhausted and give the child up.
You are wrong Q. We recently adopted a severely handcapped child. And I know there were several families vying for this little girl.
Questioner wrote:To Ecofox: Nothing is so horrible about abstinence. However, it is unrealistic to expect a married couple using contraception to practice abstinence. That is just stupid.
Questioner wrote:As to the relative death rates for abortion versus term deliveries, I get my data from agencies such as the National Bureau of Health Statistics and the statistical reports of the Centers for Disease Control (CDC). Not from http://www.antiabortion.com.
Questioner wrote:The fact is that I have never seen an abortion performed: we don't do that procedure in ICU. But I have seen it on films such as you posted. The photos and video you posted were of viable or near full-term fetuses. Those abortions cannot be done on a whim.
Questioner wrote:Post viability abortions require more than one physician to certify the need for the abortion, and it is usually a function of a severely defective fetus.
Questioner wrote:Rather than attacking the women who have abortions, why don't you antiabortion zealots put your money, time and concern into making it economically and physically possible and reasonable for families of defective children to raise them?
Liv wrote:Have you ever been to planned parenthood, Eco?
I have, and there was absolutely no push for abortion. It was a free medical clinic that helped provide sufficient, free, and private medical care while providing a range of educational options for our choosing. Something we were grateful of as we had no health care at the time of our first child.
BecauseHeLives wrote:I've been there and I know what they do and how they do it. I also know how they make their money.
Liv wrote:BecauseHeLives wrote:I've been there and I know what they do and how they do it. I also know how they make their money.
You've been there for a pregnancy you've created?
BecauseHeLives wrote:I am responsible for an abortion. Read into it what you will.
A Person wrote:BecauseHeLives wrote:I am responsible for an abortion. Read into it what you will.
I would prefer that you told us, I don't like to speculate.
If you mean that you caused an unwanted pregnancy and helped the woman to obtain an abortion, then I do have sympathy for you. I have never been in that situation but I see that it must have been very difficult for both of you and I'm glad that you were there to support her through a difficult time.
ecofox wrote:One question to all.
Why would you condemn innocent children, to a fate you are not willing to share?
Liv wrote:ecofox wrote:One question to all.
Why would you condemn innocent children, to a fate you are not willing to share?
Death? Death is coming for all of us. In the vast time-line of all the things that are and will be, there is very little difference between anything we can conceive of time.